The intention and outcome of attraction
There's been a bit of low-intensity philosophical conflict blogosphere for the last week or two about the intention and outcome of attractiveness in women. It's something kicked off by Twisty Faster again (and good for her) about whether it's possible to be a feminist and still dress up, wax, curl one's eyelashes, and (presumably) implant silicone in one's breasts, ink under one's skin, dye in one's hair, or rings in one's noses and the like if (or to the extent) the intention is to make one's self appealing to men.
Thanks to a question from Madame X of the Madame X-Files last Thursday.
Have you ever seen the movie The Slums of Beverly Hills?
In it one character says to his sister that girl are always concerned with pretty faces when all guys really want is a girl with a hot body.
Is that true?That's her whole post but you can see the dazzling studio-portrait-style photo here.
I think I just had an epiphany about my, and, I think, men's-in-general relationship to attractiveness, to the extent attempts to be attractive really are about attracting male partners and not for other purposes.*
Here's the deal. Society tries to tell us that two contradictory things are true about men.
1) Men care only about looks -- the prettier the face, the bigger the boobs, the waxier the pussy, the bluer the eyes, the silkier the hair, the whateverier the whatever, the better.
2) Men will fuck anything that moves. Including sheep, corpses, hollowed-out pumpkins, slabs of liver... and -- most irritating of all -- "ugly" women.
Here's the new-idea part.
1) Given a choice between two people he's never met a man might be more likely to initially approach the prettier of the two.
2) Given a choice between two people he knows, a man is probably more likely to approach the one who's most interested in him. (2a) Even if the other one is "prettier.")
In other words while we're taught to expect that men to prefer looks (and the fashion and cosmetics industries insist that they must) we're actually far more drawn to reciprocal interest.
There is one complicating factor
3) Preparing one's self, dressing, bathing, grooming, in the right contexts, anyway, is a way of indicating interest... of getting in the mood
#3 gets complicated because it's possible to confuse the *outcome* of grooming with the *intention.* When that happens you wind up with people imagining they have to stay prepared all the time -- even when they aren't planning anything, or that only people who've groomed themselves are sexy, or that any time they're not fully groomed they're unappealing.
Two extremes of this kind of fetishization of grooming where outcome and intention are totally reversed: a friend who said her brother-in-law got mad at her sister if she made him breakfast before she'd put on her makeup; an old girlfriend's mom who made her husband sleep in a separate room when she had her hair done so he wouldn't "muss it up" at night. In both those instances (and I'm sure you all recall countless others.)
At any rate, trying out this intentionality/outcome distinction helps reconcile for me any number of evident disconnects between men's and women's different relationships to attractiveness. It makes sense of the "I do it for me" response many people have for Twisty's assertions. It makes sense of why women often seem baffled that men seem just as attracted to them all sweaty from a workout or mussed up the morning after a date or (this one's been particularly hard for me) pale and wan when they're sick in bed. (In my experience that you'd believe any of that mattered is equally baffling to men.)
* For instance there are other reasons for grooming one's self than sexually attracting men. See, for instance, the Pope, who's divine gowns, hats, and incense-billowing purses are presumably intended to communicate status or rank instead.
My own 1 and 2 would have been:
1a) Given a choice between two people I'd never met, if I were at, say, a lesbian dance, I'd approach the prettier one (after all, we've never met, what else would I have to go on?).
1b) But if it's a choice between two men I'd never met, and I need to pick which one to approach, I think I'd pick the one whose demeanor and circumstances made him seem safer. At this point, I'm not attracted to him, and I just want to be with the person I'll be most comfortable with.
2) If it's two men that I already know, I pick, not necessarily the one who's most interested in me, nor yet the better looking one, but the one whose way of expressing that interest I find most winning.
[That's very close to what I do as well. I might define "safer" somewhat differently but the upshot is yeah, most people, and not just men and not just women, tend to be drawn to someone they feel more comfortable with rather than, necessarily, the one with the prettiest face or most fashionable body. Thank you, Lynn. --fl]
When I was a teenager I somehow absorbed the message - from my father in particular, but also from culture - that I couldn't be attractive or feminine unless I wore makeup, shaved, fussed with my hair, worried about my clothes (stylish but not *too* tight...). I recognized what was going on about the time I went to college and I rejected it. I have never had a problem "dressing up" intentionally like for a party, a formal affair, a job interview -- that's different - it's a costume of sorts. It's the everyday image of myself I present that concerns me.
These days, I eschew makeup, jewelry, etc, unless I feel in the mood to "dress up" to one degree or another. If I do, I do it for myself. In that case, it is still a genuine, sincere expression of myself, not an issue of conformity and male pressure.
Emotionally, I think I went too far in my rejection, and even after 13 years of marriage,it's hard to respond to my husband's requests for me to look a specific way, to "dress up" as part of sex play. I'm talking here about ordinary sorts of things, like a sexy dress or tall boots...
There's always in the back of my mind the sense that I'm catering to male fantasy (duh!) and somehow betraying myself - objectifying myself. It's vague, though, the sort of feeling that isn't genuinely yours, but seems artificial, an idea that was absorbed somehow with having been examined for validity.
I think that you can only do these sorts of things for yourself - for your own reasons, in ways that support your values and give you life.
In my case, I *want* to be my husband's fantasy - at least sometimes! I have a hard time giving myself the permission to do so - I think I have a hard time thinking through these issues because there's a lot of emotion involved, and it extends back to that uncertain teenage era.
[I think my experience of dressing up sort of mirrors yours. I grew up heavily influenced by Minnesota pragmatism and deeply Puritan suspicion of frippery so I wasn't exposed to much in the way of fashion. Then I became a hippy. The upshot is I don't get much of a rise out of things like slinky lingerie or designer gowns, nd so I've never been that comfortable with partners who were into it. What I got out of this post, and the discussion on other blogs that led to it, is that *to the extent* my partners saw it as sort of pre-foreplay than I should have been more appreciative. I still think it can be taken too far, and I still think a lot of people lose sight of the intention and use the outcome as a form of competition. But that doesn't change the part where people *really are* doing it for themselves and their partners. Thank you, Swan. --fl]
Looking well groomed gets me noticed and once I am noticed then I can dazzle people with what is inside me.
[And you really are dazzling, you know. Showing up all hot and sweaty instead of cool and coiffed is a wonderful opportunity to get someone into the shower together. :-) Thanks, Madame. --fl]
I think it's a little dangerous to say that women who are dressed up have the intention of attracting a mate (but I know you probably didn't mean for what you said to be taken where some people might go with this).
Grooming does seem to be a way for people to indicate that they are interested in attracting a mate, but even people who have mates (who aren't as demanding as the fellow in your story) still dress up and groom - so what's the deal there?
I wonder, if we could ask a peacock, would he say that he grows his fancy tail feathers for himself?
We humans are definitely strange creatures, since our sexual selection pressures go both ways!
In any case, I don't feel like being a feminist has anything to do with whether or not one can allow themselves to put on makeup and shave their legs. That's not what feminism is about! (at least not to me)
[I probably should have been more clear that I think that what's fine when it's meant to be special but that I worry that it's a problem when it becomes so routine that people start thinking you do it for some other reason. And *especially* when some degree of grooming beyond basic hygene becomes a standard to be met rather than a means of expression. I would add that, at least in some circles, not shaving your legs has been as much a fashion mandate as shaving them has been in others. Again, self-expression=ok, immutable standards=loss of intentionality=not ok. Thanks, Shay. --fl]
I think one of the biggest mistakes (okay, mistake is not the right word but I can't think of what the right one is at the mo'- misconception perhaps?) made is to assume that a woman wearing make-up, and looking (very?) well groomed is on the pull. I can only speak as a woman, and perhaps the same can be said of a man - i.e. he doesn't dress up necessarily to attract? Everyone grooms themselves for different reasons. Also the extent of the grooming varies as well, of course. Some spend hours and thousands of £'s on make up, jewellery et al, and others very minimal time and money - sometimes with very little outcome/difference between the two, i.e. the two bear little correlation to results sometimes.
Personally I usually wear no make up at all, apart from mascara when I go to work (my eyelashes are blonde and thus 'invisible' which I think looks pretty horrid personally!) as I just can't be bothered. As long as I have clean clothes on, look 'reasonably' neat and tidy then that's it for me. I do find the 'pressure' of media pretty disgusting to be honest, i.e. assuming that you must wear make up, get the next fashionable lot of clothes in season, etc. Adverts and stuff like that video in one of your previous posts (where an ordinarily attract woman is preened and computer manipulated to make her 'acceptably' attractive to the rest of us!) make me feel uncomfortable that I don't do more about my appearance. Basically, though, it doesn't seem to make bugger all difference if I'm dressed up (at a social gathering for instance, i.e. wedding) or not, because 'men still look at women and will forevermore'.
[Oh dear, I think I just didn't say it right at all. I didn't mean to say that makeup or attractive clothes are an open invitation to make a pass, any more than word that someone's taken a long bubble bath is inviting attention! I was sort of saying the opposite which is that I understand that it *can* be part of a ritual that helps create a mood, but that it seems that forgetting that the intention (facilitating a mood) seems more important than the outcome (winding up all decked out.) When the outcome is *confused* with the intention, or when the intention isn't a factor because the outcome has become a baseline standard or, particularly, a competitive benchmark *then* it gets weird. I hope that makes more sense than how I originally put it, Dewdrop. Thanks! --fl]
[Oh yeah, and funny thing how even though that ad is supposed to show us that it's all fake it *still* manages to nudge us towards buying their products. Amazing coincidence, eh? :-) --fl]
Hi, fl,
I'd add a third point (or perhaps a corrollary) to the "new-idea part", and that is, in my case at least, if I approach two women I know in some social function, I'll most likely interact with the one who's more interesting to me, and that may or may not be the "prettier" of the two. I guess at my advanced age (59) there ARE things that make a woman attractive besides her makeup. There are things like the way the carry themselves, their presence, the way they look at you, and who knows what else, pheromones?
Now, if I may, I'd like to respond to some of the comments made about physical attributes/makeup (I can see all women thinking, I knew he'd get around to this eventually):
1. I'm a body man, as opposed to pretty face person, my theory being that women (men too, right?) can't do too much with the face they're blessed with, but they can take care of their bodies, as in staying in shape, and I appreciate that - so body first, face second, if you will.
2. Maybe it's a cultural thing after living so long in Latin America, but I do appreciate women who take the time to the do the makeup/hair thing. I don't/don't expect someone to do that before breakfast, but it's nice to see the extra touch in the office, or in a restaurant at night. As well, (and this'll be controversial, I know), I think Latinas take better care of themselves than gringas, or at least that's my impression seeing gringas down here in Ecuador.
Finally, I don't see much mention of the care that men (should) take of themselves in your posting. I'd like to see the reverse, if you will, of the posting comments: What do women look for in terms of men taking care of themselves? Shaved/showered every day, with coat and tie? I did the coat and tie thing for 30 years, and now I run a company in moccasins,jeans and button-down shirt; haven't done a tie in a year now (OK, I DO shower and shave!). The nice thing is that women seem to like me in jeans; maybe I should have dropped the coat and tie a long time ago..... T
[Good point, about men's grooming, Tambopaxi. Thanks. I've never been to Ecuador but I know a fair number of people who've gone there. I'm guessing that North Americans who go down there are a) on vacation and b) they may mistakenly believe that "Ecuador" means "banana republic/rustic outback," whereas I understand much of Quito (for instance) is pretty cosmopolitan. --fl]
Tambopaxi, are those women around your age? It gets much harder around your age for a woman to stay the course of nature. Losing or gaining weight, illness and gravity can have an impact that's hard to overcome.
So few men have noticed me over the past few years, but one thing I have noticed, that lightening my hair has increased the few. Maybe it is because it seems unnatural. Not that any have spoken to me.
[This is sort of off-topic but it's really good to see people responding to each-other's comments. I often worry that by responding directly to everyone personally puts a damper on people's interactions. Thanks for shaking things up, Five. --fl]
As a girl who realized early that no amount of grooming would ever make her classically beautiful or even very "normal," I've always relied on confidence and sensuality to attract mates. Direct eye contact and a sincerely friendly smile go a long way towards encouraging potential partners to engage you in conversation.
Now, it's true that a good dollop of mascara and unfashionably dark lipstick help boost my confidence, but my grooming goes little beyond that. (I don't even know how to wear more makeup than that, I'm afraid.) I wash my hair once in a while, and I floss compulsively, but that's about it. I've convinced myself that if I feel pretty and desirable, those feelings will be conveyed to whomever it is I want to see me in a favorable light.
If my intention is to make myself attractive, I need to pull that attractiveness from inside of me. I don't think I'd respect a positive outcome originating from my appearance otherwise.
[Cool! That's what I was trying to say about intention vs. outcome, Allumeuse. Attractiveness comes from inside, and without that then makeup is just paint that comes in expensive little bottles. Thanks! --fl]
h'm...
i think that what you say is very worthwhile. but there are different things i do for different people. if i'm out cruising for a good time, i put on makeup, play up the mainstream and conventional signals. if i actually am interested in a person as a real person, though, i'm much more likely to wear a low-cut shirt without a bra or something like that, no makeup. but if that's the case, we're probably already in the watching movies on the couch stage anyway.
hmmm... in men, i definitely look for good grooming. it's very important to me. i think i want to think about that some. maybe i'll post about it soon.
[I'd love to hear what you have to say about men's grooming, A. The other day Amanda Marcotte suggeted that as men and women come closer to social and economic parity we can expect men to put more effort into their apparance than tradition says they've needed to. (Although if nothing else the existence of mustache wax and hair pommades suggests they've already been making at least some effort for centuries.) Thanks. --fl]
I think it's a little dangerous to say that women who are dressed up have the intention of attracting a mate
If you're comparing one woman to another, it likely says more about which woman likes dressing up more (or which woman works in the job that requires dressing up more) than which woman is more eager to attract a mate. On the other hand, if a woman noticeably spruces up her appearance around a particular man, that may be more of a sign.
can't do too much with the face they're blessed with, but they can take care of their bodies, as in staying in shape
My first thought was that this would be a standard that would work in my favor :-), since my face is aging faster than my body. But then it occurred to me that breasts will sag when you reach middle age, just as your face will get wrinkles, so, maybe it doesn't matter whether you're dealing with a face man or a body man.
What do women look for in terms of men taking care of themselves?
Well, as far as my taste is concerned, male or female, you're better off keeping your body in shape than fussing too much with your clothes. But then, I'm married, so you shouldn't care too much whether you're attractive to me :-).
And it's not as if I'm attracted to all that many people anyway, good-looking or not.
"Well, as far as my taste is concerned, male or female, you're better off keeping your body in shape than fussing too much with your clothes." Same for me, where "in shape" means keeping fit and healthy more than coed-shapely. "But then, I'm married, so you shouldn't care too much whether you're attractive to me..." Oh yeah, that too. :-) Thank you, Lynn. --fl]
I understood what you were trying to say, perhaps it's ME who didn't put my point across? lol
[Doh! Not sure why I automatically assume it's my fault... but it's a pretty common reflex isn't it. :-) Thank you kindly, Dewdrop. --fl]
Personally, I do both. I dress up for myself and for my partner. Hell, when I'm going out with the girls I dress up for them (because let's be honest here, a lot of women do it for that reason alone).
I enjoy the way making myself prettied up feels. My momma taught me how to put make up and explained why we do it, "Compliment your best features, play down you weakenesses." That's the best way to get through life and make-up is the same I suppose. When I'm having a bad day the first thing I do is go shave my legs and put on make-up.
Most of the time I don't worry about it. I don't wear make-up every day, I most certainly don't fuss with my hair. I've styled my own hair maybe... 5 times in the last two or three years. (Dates and my best friends bridal shower.) I'm a low maintance kinda girl. Of course, right now I'm lucky that I'm naturally gorgeous (said in obviously snotty tone *snicker*) and I don't have to muss with it. That may change as I age.
I adore pretty clothes, lingerie and I wear stockings and a garter belt when it's cold - haven't worn pantyhose in years. I almost always wear pretty panties and bras. They make me feel sexy and feminine no matter whether a man sees them or not.
Make-up does the same. but I also use as a mask for business purposes, a way to present myself other then who I am open and vulnerable. It helps create a woman who's stronger and more capable. Am I already that woman? Yes, but it's the process that allows me to become her. It's a ritual.
I'm not sure, in retrospect if that added to your commentary or not...
[No that was great, Autumn. I remember years ago someone telling me that one benefit of not wearing makeup all the time is that your face tans evenly. She said otherwise you get weird sort of tan lines that look awkward unless you... keep wearing makeup. Oh yeah, one other thing. I remember going back to north Jersey with a long-term partner and one day we were sitting around with a bunch of aunts and cousins and former classmates from her high school and they all started going on about how after all those years out of highschool her face still looked "so young and pretty." Then one of the aunts says, in a thick Jersey accent, "ow I know what it is, she ain't wearin' any makeup. Lookit, she don't wear no makeup!" It was evidently sort of like cheating. Thanks, Autumn. --fl]
Just quick response on some points:
N to F: I forgot to mention that I don't pay that much attention to age - and I mean it. Most people's ages don't stand out or are obvious,(unless they're 90 or something) at least to me. It really gets to down to what's in their eye, their moves, and the other factors I mentioned. I guess it gets down to who they are and how they feel about themselves, which brings me to the second point, which I noticed in your comment about not being noticed or not being spoken to; I'm no George Clooney, but that never bothered me. Hell, I go speak to THEM; I'm not waiting around for people to come to me.
For Inconsistent Allumeuse: Your comment is pretty much the mirror image of my attitude - from the female side of course. Get out there and socialize, right? T
[Thanks. --fl]