Baby, baby, sweep me off my feet? Maybe not.
Hugo Schwyzer has some useful things to say about the praise men get for doing perfectly ordinary things.
...when the little one was placed gently in my arms, I responded enthusiastically and genuinely. I rocked him and cradled him without anxiety; it felt marvelous to hold someone so small and so new. (In the past, those feelings have been primarily directed towards four-legged children; until recently, puppies and kits were more interesting to me than human babies. Now it's at least equal.)
What I noticed, as I rather reluctantly handed the tiny lad back to his Mama, was how much "stroking" I got. Several women (and one or two of the men) gushed over my "performance" with the child. "You're so easy with babies", one woman said, "you'll be such a great father!" Another said: "Don't you just love seeing a man showing so much nurturing?" These women didn't know much about my past. They weren't praising Hugo for having come so far, they were praising a man they only knew slightly for demonstrating a basic level of competence with small children. And that struck me as profound male privilege.
We assume that women, both those who have had children and those who haven't, are "natural" nurturers. We take it for granted that women will enjoy holding and cuddling small babies, including those who aren't their own. We don't gush with surprise when we see a woman rocking a little one, singing a lullaby. And perhaps in some more enlightened and egalitarian circles, there are those who are equally unsurprised by a display of authentic tenderness and nurturing from a man who isn't a father. But from what I've been seeing lately, far too many folks are still agog at the sight of a child safe in the arms of the likes of me.
Feminists have long pointed out that we tend to praise in men what we take for granted in women. When a man does do his share of the household duties, when he does show some willingness to wash the dishes and fold the laundry, he's far more likely to win praise for it than would a woman. This happens with child care too, of course. And what's striking to me now, as I finally get around to the idea that I might be a really good and devoted father, is how much approbation a man gets for expressing genuine interest in his children. Even after all this time, after all the social change the world has seen, there are many of us who are still awed and impressed by adult men who show signs of being as devoted to children as a woman. That bothers me.
I get that too. He folds laundry! He cooks! He gets up in the middle of the night with children. He deals with stinky diapers. Big deal. Babysitters deal with stuff like that beginning as early as age twelve. So what should we make of an adult man who can do the same thing?
Answer? Not much.
I mean, look. If you were a business manager you'd probably have heard something about the role expectations play in performance. If your *expectation* is that the men in your lives are thumb-fingered clutzes then yeah, you and your friends will be pleasantly surprised when he can do... anything. *But!* If you were a business manager you'd probably also have noticed that performance tends at best to *meet* expectations.
If this was a lad-magazine article the author would probably continue the analogy with a reminder that managers reward those who exceed expectations with bonuses, and suggest that dropping kneeward and administering a bonus blowjob every time he picks up the kids from school...
But first of all partners, female *or male,* are not employees! If we imagine we're our employee's managers then we're already off on the wrong foot in our relationships. In fact, *by definition* partners don't manage partners!
Secondly, sex isn't a reward. If we imagine otherwise our relationships are already off on the wrong foot.
And finally, this isn't a lad-magazine article and, unlike such publications, I'm not about to promote an expectation of grown men as less capable than a 12-year-old.
So here are a couple of pointers:
Instead of making a big deal out of it say "thanks."
Instead of telling him there's nothing more erotic than watching a man wash dishes (especially if you really *do* think it's erotic) try saying "I was just about to do that, thanks. And hey, do we have time for a little quickie?" (If you don't think it's erotic and/or you're not horny, just say "Thanks.")
If *he* makes a big deal out of picking up after the children, and hints he should get a "reward" say "Thanks."
If he does something around the house but doesn't do it "as well as you could" say "thanks." (Practice makes perfect, and if he hasn't had much practice give him time to perfect it.)
If you happen to be horny, look for time to have sex, not reasons to. If you're not, then don't have sex.
That's not a very complete list. Suggestions?
Update: If he's holding a baby say "wow, how does that feel, holding a baby?" or "Can I hold her next?"
Oo, this drives me mad. I do like to see a man who's good with kids, but it does piss me off that men are praised for getting off their arse. Whereas women, from a pretty young age, get in trouble for not helping.
I've been told off repetitively by my mother for not offering to help. But while I feel guilty for not helping, I feel severely pissed off at helping when there are 2 women in the kitchen already and 3 men sitting drinking beer
One xmas it was me, my mother and her partner, Mum's brother and his partner. Mum had done all the cooking, and anytime my over-excited siblings (4 & 6 at the time) wanted something they'd get sent to Mum. After dinner, my Uncle's partner instantly was up helping. It didn't even cross the men's minds to help. They sat there, drinking beer and gossiping and playing with a video camera while I fumed
Mum, the feminist she is, has got so used to this kind of domesticality she doesn't even notice it any more
Grrrrrr
As for what you're actually talking about, I don't think sex should be "given" under any circumstances, but should be something you both enjoy. Fancy that!
[Yup. There was a study getting some buzz last week about how women in relationships do more cleaning and men less compared to when either is single. I keep think it's at least in part about learned helplessness on men's side... but also learned... um... responsiblity-for-two-ness on women's? (Your mom's attempts to pound it into you is an example of what I'm trying to say.) It doesn't help that they reinforce each other, but somebody's got to start breaking the cycles. Thanks, Dana. --fl]
Expectation does have something to with it, Figleaf. Before I entered my teens, my mother became so ill that that my father, my older sister and I had to take over the housework, laundry, cooking and grocery shopping. It did not seem like a hardship, since we all had been pitching in for some time as my mother's health deteriorated. And my father never made a fuss about it either. He just did it, along with driving my mother back and forth to the doctor and working two jobs. (Yes, he was part of what Tom Brokaw aptly called The Greatest Generation).
So a man who could not handle his own share of housework would seem like a spoiled kid, rather than a man I would want to marry.
[Perfect example, Kochanie. What's even cooler is he set the standard for you! Thanks. --fl]
Hi Figleaf,
It's a good man indeed that does things just because he feels like an equal partner.
Yeah, it ought to be the norm, but so should being on time, rembering birthdays and holidays and anniversaries, and saying please and thank you to your partner no matter how long you've been together.
Either sex appreciates being treated well, and responsibilities being handled across the board.
And yeah, sex should ALWAYS be because you want each-other/want to....
[The trick is not to make it about being right or wrong. Y'know how I was saying Joan Sewell felt like sex was an obligation she had to fulfill in order to meet some standard set by her partner (and, considering her reporting of his side, set by *her* as well?) Well, take that same thing and put it on standard expectations put on men. Sex? More enjoyable when we do it for ourselves instead of others. Remembering birthdays? More enjoyable when we do it for ourselves instead of others. In other words, the other side of stroking each other for doing the obvious is playing "gotcha" when we don't. (Gotta track down Sewell and thank her. Whether she meant to or not -- you can't ever be sure with philosophers -- she's just opened my eyes to all sorts of cool stuff.) Thanks, Annie. --fl]
OK, I am confused now. I over exaggerate my thanks to husband when he does stuff around the house sometimes. I guess I get that from my mom. It's supposed to stroke his ego and make him want to help out more. But since it doesn't really seem to work that way and also makes me pissed, if I think about how I rarely get thanks for what I do and he's getting his thanks supersized ... so now I have to rethink this one.
But I am totally there with you on the sex as a reward thing. Why would anyone want to hold back sex? Ever? Such a bad idea. Like, I'm hungry but I won't eat because I'm angry at the cook right now. Oh, yeah, that makes sense.
[Right! The problem with exaggerated praise is it communicates "I didn't expect you to!" And then when someone lives up to those implicitly low expectations, sure, it just pisses us off! (Gotta be a Murphy's law about that.) Also, paradoxically, when both parties take responsibility they're both more likely to say thanks and *mean* it. As for sex as a reward? Or withholding as a punishment? Yikes! Talk about alienation of purpose either way! Excellent points, DFP, thanks. --fl]
FL,
This subject is one of the few that drives me to true anger. I won't go off on a rant, because both you and Schwyzer have delineated the issue very well. Here's my one suggestion. If a woman wants her partner to take responsibility for - pick all that apply - housework, childcare, cooking, grocery shopping, etc, then she also must be willing to relinquish control of it/them. This means her partner gets to do it the way he wants.
And though this is almost impossible to prevent, sex should never be tied to power/ responsibility issues.
janeway
[A-a-absolutely right, Janeway! 'Member Dana talking about her mom putting it on her to help out but not the men in the family? The toughest thing is to get away from *delegating* tasks instead of actually *sharing* them. And I mean really hard. Especially if, like most people, you hear your mother in your head going "not like that!" and "you missed a spot!" I love my mom to death, and she really didn't demand that much of either my brother or sister and I, but every time I wipe off a table I can hear her telling me (ok, for like the 100th time) how it was supposed to go. And it still bugs me when I see other people, men or women, not doing it "right." But the thing is *nobody elected me to supervise them domestically!" And if it's hard for me it's gotta be even harder for people raised with the expectation that it would always be their job. Perfect point, Janeway. Thank you! --fl]
PS - I like the picture as well as the post. Very..something. You look like you're about to deliver a manifesto or something.
[Heh. I was actually playing with the rotation-angle on the broom and a little anxious that it was peekabooing too much. Not to give away secrets or anything. :-) Thank you, Captain. --fl]
It's the dads that say they have to babysit that drive me a bit nutty. Um, your kid so your being the dad not the sitter.
I get gushed at when I hold babies because I am a single and childless. Everyone supposes that this means I am yearning for my own and proceed to tell me how 'good' I look with a baby in my arms.
It's not an itch I have. I just like to borrow the babies for a cuddle but am supremely happy to give them back when they wail or poop. I'd rather have a cat :)
[Bloody right, J. And as Janeway (and I) say there are two overlapping dimensions. First, expectations are too low for him. Second, expectations that women are more "nurturing" by nature sets responsibility too high for her. And oh man, the only time I think I've ever been totally mobbed by cute young women was when I took my then-two-week-old son into a coffee shop. I remember thinking "where were you all when I was single." :-) But yeah, it was all about him, not me. But baby poop? Totally not a big deal. Since my partner went back to work and I stayed home (and since, after all, she spent a lot of time on duty nursing) I changed *way* more diapers than she did. And generally could do it with less muss or (his) fuss. Men? My experience with other guys who get into it is we're great with that stuff if we bother trying (or, coming out of the same sets of expectations, are *allowed* to try) at all. Thanks, J. --fl]
or, coming out of the same sets of expectations, are *allowed* to try
aye, there's the rub. In my own experience my partner's efforts to help coincided more or less with the "empty nest" which made me feel largely superfluous. I had quite a considerable, largely silent, struggle with that because I really did appreciate his efforts. Anyway, as always, we've overcome that little hurdle and now I have a very talented personal chef!
[Let's hope it's a generational thing, A. Most men our age never got any of that instruction growing up, though that's not *much* of an excuse. As your partner has demonstrated, it really is a little hurdle. Now? Lucky you, lucky *him!* Thanks! --fl]
FL
You all are so right about expectations. I come a large family of all girls, and we did all the chores that both boys and girls did growing up. The responsibility for them devolved to us as soon as was humanly possible. They were never considered anything but chores and something to be gotten out of if possible.
On the other hand, in my husband's large family, all but one of the sibs are boys. While he and his brothers certainly know how to wield a broom, do laundry and cook, his mom really did all the work, which she did CONSTANTLY. And somehow, they all got the impression that she did these things for them, because - making virtue of necessity - she told them so. That's not necessarily bad, but you can see the danger here. I do chores because they have to be done, not because I enjoy them. My spouse believes doing chores is somehow tied to how much one cares about one's family. I leave it to your imagination to picture what kind of problems that particular clash of expectations has caused.
The other expectation - about women being more nurturing - is also very hard to deal with. Despite the fact that I have four children, I'm not a "baby" person. With my own kids, I cuddled and cooed and changed diapers and did countless night watches when they were ill. However, I have absolutely no desire to hold someone else's baby, or cuddle them or whatever. This doesn't make me either less a caring and competent mother, or less a female, but you'd be surprised at how many people think there's something not-quite-right about me because I don't go gooey over babies.
["My spouse believes doing chores is somehow tied to how much one cares about one's family." Oh boy to I hear you on *that,* Janeway! It's sort of like goal-oriented vs. movement-oriented politics. If you're goal oriented you're happy when you meet your goal, if you're movement oriented you gotta keep moving or the whole thing's a failure. It's been an issue for me in the past -- especially since, if you actually don't want to do the work but just want to keep things *tidy* you're less likely to make a huge mess to begin with. (Unlike the "it's the effort that counts" crowd.) Thanks! --fl]
I was the complete opposite with babies and people were horrified. Imagine, a woman who didn't particularly like small children, LOL, it was terrible! I never babysat when I was young because babies and little kids made me go 'Ick' not 'Awwwwww' (luckily I don't feel that way about my own children, but I am still not partial to other people's kids). So I always felt like something was wrong with me, since apparently women are supposed to have this natural instinct and mine was apparently defective.
As for the men thing, my mother-in-law spoiled my husband (and his brothers) rotten. When we go to her house for dinner NONE of the guys help. I force Jack to do it because I don't think it's fair that he glares and me to get into the kitchen with his mum while he sits on his ass and watches sports. I have no problem not helping her, she didn't teach them squat, why should I pick up the slack for her lazy kids? I love my husband, but it's taken us years to find a fair divide over housework.
Anyway, thanks for getting me all worked up over it, HA HA.
[Yeah, one of the problems with two people living together is that not only can you have different work ethics about housework, you can have different standards too. The latter can be harder to deal with than the former. Needs to be done, but it's harder. Thanks, Shasta. --fl]
There was a study getting some buzz last week about how women in relationships do more cleaning and men less compared to when either is single...
Figleaf,
Could you please tell me the name of the organization that did this study, or tell me where you read about it? Thanks.
[It was buzzing around the political and feminism blogs last week -- I think the original (PDF) study can be found here. I got that link via Google from Australia's The Age. Hope that helps, Kochanie. --fl]
Kochanie, it was Helene Couprie, an economist at Toulouse University in France who did the study on British men and women. I did wonder why she didn't look at France ...
Here's one link to the BBC report
Thank you, A!
All very well said, good discussion.
Of course... this runs the other way too. Most women are not reared to be very mechanically inclined, to dig into plumbing, carpentry, electricity, cars, to lift and carry heavy objects. Many women still aren't reared with the expectation of a career. You can come up with your own personal examples.
I probably over-praise women who I know not to be trained or experienced in some of these things when then try them. I want to encourage them, I'm excited they're crossing over the (taught) gender roles. I don't tend to offer sexual gratification as a reward... hmmm, I'll have to rethink that! (kidding, kidding, the whole sex as an economy thing had a great discussion recently in the comments on this post at BitchPhD:
http://bitchphd.blogspot.com/2007/01/blah.html
[Excellent point, Kevin. I realize I'm guilty of the same behavior. I'll have to think about that. Thanks for mentioning that side of the question! --fl]