Figleaf's Real Adult Sex

Thank you for this, Figleaf. The definition you gave is something to aspire to. I am not there, at least not all of the time.

[Well, the way I look at it, Mag, is that it’s more of a climate than a hard set of rules, where climate means something like “are you generally warming, cooling, or holding stead over time. So yeah, it’s something to aspire to, and definitely something to work towards, but not something to kick yourself for not getting right first time every time. Thanks! —fl]

I’ve been wrestling with this one a good bit lately, and here you come along and put (most of) what it means to me in a nutshell. And, by “most of”, I don’t mean that you’re missing anything I think is critical, just that there are some differences in emphasis (f’ex, “gender- and orientation-free perspective”, and “individual perspectives” include rights issues for transfolks, but if I’d written it, I likely would have been more specific).

That’s the great thing about discussion; I don’t have to bootstrap everything for myself. Thanks!

Sunflower

[Actually I’m pretty sure “trans issues” was included in the original. We were right in the middle of that at the time and so it may have been one of those “too obvious to forget” points and so I didn’t write it in my notes. But yeah, honoring diversity isn’t just a polite way of saying you’ll tolerate you’d rather not. So trans issues would be in there. And thanks for your kind words, Sunflower. Good luck with your own thoughts about it, I look forward to it. —fl]

[Update: Wow, a target=”_blank” href=“http://sunflower-p.livejournal.com/3033.html”>great post on the subject! —fl]

Oh definitely, it is definitely a cultural climate to aspire to, and some parts of it are not appropriate for everyone all the time. For example the part about contraception and sex for recreation, not just procreation. Some people have religious beliefs that say that the only acceptable form of contraception is natural family planning (NFP) and while NFP is pretty effective if practiced correctly, part of the attitude among those who practice it is the understanding that a child may result and being ok with that. So, they are not sex positive, but the young married Catholics who I know who practice it seem to have happy fulfilling sex. Who am I to say that those beliefs are wrong? My only objection is that some people with those beliefs work to impose their beliefs on others, but I see simply living a certain way and imposing that way on everyone as separate things. Btw, it surprises me just how conservative young married Catholics are. I grew up Catholic, too but not conservative.

Also, “No one makes another feel bad about wanting something sexual. (Whether they agree to engage is entirely separate). “ That would be fine in a sex positive cultural environment where the request was made in a nonthreatening way, but on the other hand…if the request is entirely inappropriate and possibly threatening, even the most sex positive person will respond in a negative way.

And then there’s all the stuff of one partner being in the mood and the other not, and sure, anyone should be free to decline but feelings of rejection can pop up from time to time because we as human beings are not always rational. If you want to have sex with someone and they don’t want to have sex, it is kind of hard to respond with okey doke, ya know? Even if the only reason is that they have a head cold and want to sleep.

[I think there are sex-positive resolutions to many of the problems that come up, including some of the ones you’ve listed. I’ll just say that “where not desired” is the way to resolve using “natural” birth control. Because if all you’re trying to do is space pregnancies further apart then the less than, um, 100% reliability isn’t an issue. Thanks, Mag. —fl]

I think that those practicing NFP for religious reasons would reject other parts of sex positivism for the same reasons. My point about that was only that sex positivism is not the only way, although maybe it is the healthiest way? I don’t know but I think that people with belief systems that don’t fit the ideals that you listed may be generally just as happy, although maybe not, it’s hard to say because it’s hard to measure happiness and happiness is relative. I guess it’s just the cultural relativist in me and I should stop my tangents in your comments and take it to my own space, because where I want to go with is only somewhat related to what you said in the first place.

[Oh, completely agreed that externally imposed prohibitions are a warning sign of further gum ups. I think what I’m trying to say is that while the odds that any one person could, or necessarily even should consistently reach all the points, the more consciencious you are the more we and our partners are going to tend to enjoy what we do. Thanks, Mag. —fl]

Glad you didn’t mind, Sunflower.

It’s never really finished, is it? All of these ideas are in flux, both in society and in our own minds, and that’s a major reason why it’s exciting. And also hard.

I too have a tough time saying, “OK, it’s good enough, I’m going to publish and be done.” I spent nearly a decade (!) on my dissertation. Blogging is a healthy corrective to that. I think it’s helpful to think of ourselves and our ideas as works in progress.

All that is to say I’ll look forward to you next great post!

Recaptcha: score Unofficial

Hi Figleaf, I finally wrote something about this but like Sunflower, I feel that it’s not finished. It’s sort of a continuing LAS education thing.

[Cool. I liked reading your post quite a bit, Mag. Thanks. —fl]