
Photo by Flickr user Broken Piggy Bank. Used under a Creative Commons license.
Echidne of the Snakes asks of John Tierney’s latest sociobiological/“ev psych” thesis
At the same time, I do not have the resources that someone who actually works in the field would have and, once again, I plead for the professionals to step in.So here we go: Tierney’s thesis is that the more gender-equal a society is the more men look like they are from Mars and the more women look like they are from Venus. Men are competitive, aggressive, emotionally flat, and women are cooperative, timid and emotionally curved I guess. Yet the reason for these differences is not our different planetary roots but our different roots in prehistory!
And that prehistory must have had a division of labor between men and women though we don’t have any direct fossil evidence from it. And that division of labor must have meant that women gathered and men hunted though we don’t know if that’s actually the whole truth. And somehow gathering required cooperation and hunting did not though it’s fairly easy to imagine how finding a really good spot for juicy roots would be something you’d keep hidden from the other gatherers and though it’s also fairly easy to imagine how hunting for big game would actually require cooperation between the hunters.
In short, I fail to see how cooperation would have become the selected-for characteristic more often in women than in men, and I also fail to see how it wouldn’t have benefited both sexes to be able to be both cooperative and competitive, depending on the situation. In any case, only a guy who keeps his distance from women altogether could assume that women are not intensely competitive when needed.
Here’s a for-instance from Tierny’s article (as excerpted in Echidne’s post)
To test these hypotheses, a series of research teams have repeatedly analyzed personality tests taken by men and women in more than 60 countries around the world. For evolutionary psychologists, the bad news is that the size of the gender gap in personality varies among cultures. For social-role psychologists, the bad news is that the variation is going in the wrong direction. It looks as if personality differences between men and women are smaller in traditional cultures like India’s or Zimbabwe’s than in the Netherlands or the United States. A husband and a stay-at-home wife in a patriarchal Botswanan clan seem to be more alike than a working couple in Denmark or France. The more Venus and Mars have equal rights and similar jobs, the more their personalities seem to diverge.
Yeah, boy, you’d have to have some pretty sophisticated gene sets, or as yet undetected but extraordinary selective pressure in humanity’s past, to get gender to express more distinctly during periods of gender equality and subside otherwise. So its nice that Tierny acknowledges the problem.
But couldn’t you just dip instead into almost any post-elementary-school feminist text for that bit about how beyond a certain, pretty-low-level baseline gender is socially constructed* based not on survival-driven genes but by observation and social interaction? And since the examples he uses (India vs. Zimbabwe vs. Netherlands vs. the U.S.) tend to also lie on a continuum of affluence and opportunities for leisure wouldn’t you think that residents of the Netherlands are going to have more leisure time** will also have more opportunity to construct more elaborate distinctions?
Oh, one more thing about how gender differences might be more exaggerated when gender equality is greater from a highly unusual source. In her epic The Origins of Totalitarianism, in her section on antisemitism, Hannah Arendt made a fascinating and relevant observation about England’s Victorian-era prime minister, Benjamin Disraeli. Disraeli was from a thoroughly assimilated family of Jewish ancestry. Baptised and raised much like any other affluent Anglican he nevertheless capitalized on his “exotic” origins. The tricky part? As Arendt dryly puts it
Disraeli, who never denied that “the fundamental fact about (him) was that he was a Jew,” had an admiration for all things Jewish that was matched only by his ignorance of them.”
Pg. 71
Arendt says Disraeli, having next to no actual experience of Jewishness, distinguished himself by having his tailors cut his suits, and his barber cut his hair, in ways that he imagined made him look “more Jewish.”
And when I think about Tierney’s finding that differences become more exaggerated as meaningful equality increases I’m left wondering if… maybe… y’know… you might have had the sort of social breakdowns that, oh, say, Barbara Ehrenreich and Deirdre English mention in the early chapters of For Her Own Good: Two Centuries of the Experts Advice to Women, or Shulamith Firestone brings up in The Dialectic of Sex
. You know, where after the industrial revolution destroyed the ancient, necessity-driven sex roles people started having these identity crises about “what it means” to be a man (Hemmingway, Robert Service, Hammett, Kipling) or a woman (Godey’s Lady’s Book, Ellen Swallow Richards) with the result that they tended to, um, emulate what we imagine are the most distinctive characteristics.
Nah, all that’s a total coincidence. It’s waaaay easier to say evolution does it, right? :-)
[** Please note Thorsten Veblen’s observation that the construction of leisure does not imply effortlessness. In fact quite the opposite. —fl]




Submitted by 2385 (not verified) on Wed, 2008-09-10 13:42.
I must admit that much of this post is lost to me but this quote seems to be awfully wrong.
And that prehistory must have had a division of labor between men and women though we don't have any direct fossil evidence from it. And that division of labor must have meant that women gathered and men hunted though we don't know if that's actually the whole truth. And somehow gathering required cooperation and hunting did not though it's fairly easy to imagine how finding a really good spot for juicy roots would be something you'd keep hidden from the other gatherers and though it's also fairly easy to imagine how hunting for big game would actually require cooperation between the hunters.
There were societies living as they did during prehistory(they even may be a few still existing today)in which anthropologist studied. It wasn't necessary to have fossil record of humans when there were still societies that were hunters or gatherers. It appeared to me in that in these societies roles were assign on the needs of survival. It would difficult to hunt with a baby strap to back, when breast feeding. Males would not be suitable for this. I think females were pretty much on equal footing at that time.
I think gender roles became more distinct when man had more leisure to contemplate himself and god became male.
[I said the same thing but you said it *way* more clearly. Thanks, Five! --fl]
Submitted by 2385 (not verified) on Thu, 2008-09-11 13:52.
The thing that annoys me about the original Tierney article, is that it's never explained what the differences actually are or how exactly they are detected. I'm suspicious of "personality tests" in general because they seem to me to be a circular definition in many cases (that is, they don't seem to be predictive, or even diagnostic, in many cases).
I'd be very curious to see how the standard deviations and other statistical measurements compared between the samples, for example, which might reveal far more about what equality offers and what's really going on.
[Yup. I really *really* wish academics could just publish their flipping papers instead of firewalling them. Either that or I wish I had university access so I could read them for less than the thousands of dollars all the subscriptions would cost. $#%!~@%$. Thanks, SDE. --fl]
Submitted by 2385 (not verified) on Sun, 2008-09-14 17:31.
Wow... where to even start? I guess it's always a good idea to look at the original article when these things come up; Tierney is talking about a summary of some research that can be found here here.
The statistical tools are interesting in their own right, and I can't really do justice to them in a blog comment. The personality traits that Smith et al tested are "Neuroticism, Extraversion, Openness to Experience, Agreeableness, and Conscientiousness", also called "the Big Five". You can find some helpful discussion of the Big Five here, including the test that Schmitt et al used (just follow the daisy chain from the "Where do I get the Big Five Inventory (BFI)?" link).
As usual when these discussions of gender differences come up, I think the actual results are a lot less politically significant than the huge amount of spin that surrounds them. The trends are statistically significant, which means that they'd be unlikely to turn up by random chance, but they are not large. (The bigger your sample, the smaller the differences that are statistically significant, and these people had a pretty huge sample.) There's a lot of overlap between men and women. In countries where the differences are most pronounced, it's because the men there are statistically atypical. Even if Schmitt et al are right to claim sexual selection partially explains the differences between men and women, so what? This doesn't mean the differences are immutable; in fact, part of their thesis is that the differences vary from culture to culture. And it doesn't mean that men who are less neurotic, agreeable
This research seems interesting and worthwhile in its own right, and I'm sad to see it so politicized. I'm not trying to single out Echidne here; I think the way that Tierney reports this stuff invites his readers to make pernicious cognitive errors. And I'm a little worried about some of the framing Schmitt et al (and the people they cite); does it really make sense to distinguish between feminine "openness to feelings" and masculine "openness to ideas"? (On the other hand, the bit at the end on gene-environment interaction really helps put things in perspective and head off stupid sexist misreadings of their research.)
I feel like part of the problem is that most science reporters (and most of their) readers don't know enough basic statistics. Whey you don't have the vocabulary to talk about what's really going on, I think it's easier to fall back on stereotypical ways of thinking. But that's not the whole answer, since scientists can also have their reasoning subtly poisoned by stereotypes.
\end{novel}
[Yes, but it's a very nice novel! Thanks for so much info, P, I really appreciate it. --fl]
Submitted by 2385 (not verified) on Mon, 2008-09-15 01:31.
Ha, I misspelled the PI's name and trailed off in the middle of a sentence. Anyway, it doesn't mean that men who are less neurotic, agreeable, or extroverted are somehow failures as men.
[Agreed. Those aren't the criteria for success or failure, although they probably have a lot of bearing on personal sense of happiness. Thanks, P. --fl]