Summary: Having established that many evolutionary psychologists have studied no biology since high-school we turn to the question do evolutionary psychologists study psychology? Plus, challenging an accusation that criticism of ev-psych comes from “creationists.”
Via a tip from Twitter, reporter Kyle Wind of the Hudson Valley Daily Freeman says
NEW PALTZ — A SUNY New Paltz psychology professor attributes the evolutionary importance of maintaining close social bonds to his study’s finding that people are more upset by the idea of a spouse or significant other cheating with a friend or relative than with a stranger.
To conduct the study, published in the journal Evolutionary Psychology in late November, researchers surveyed two groups of college students to explore infidelity in heterosexual relationships through the “identity of the interloper,” said Professor Glenn Geher, one of the academics behind the study and the chairman of SUNY New Paltz’s Psychology Department.
...
From a “strict evolutionist perspective,” Geher said, “one might predict that we’d be more OK with our partner cheating with, for instance, our brother, who shares 50 percent of my genetic combination, but that’s definitely not what happens.”
...
Researchers actually quantified the level of distress based on the identity of the person with whom participants’ partners would theoretically have sexual encounters by assigning rankings.
In the first sample, the group’s 194 women rated the thought of a partner cheating with their mothers as most upsetting, followed by, in order, daughters, sisters, friends, aunts, former lovers, nieces, cousins, co-workers, and strangers at the bottom of the list.
Similarly, the 65 men rated distress levels over the idea of their significant others’ sexual infidelity with their fathers at the top of the list followed by brothers, sons, friends, uncles, former lovers, cousins, co-workers, nephews, and strangers, according to the study.
I’m going to stop right there, having also left out a bunch of other… fascinating declarations about what Glen Geher says must be true about evolved behavior because one commenter, j2bryson, asked a really important question about the significance of that ordering.
“I wonder if this tells us anything about indentification with one’s partner, as these are the same people one shouldn’t one’s self have sex with.”
As usual I don’t have unpaid access to academic journals so I’m just going to assume that Geher meticulously documents how his experiment distinguishes ordinary social and psychological reactions to the prospect of near-incestuous relationships from evolutionarily-directed ones.
For instance while determining that his late-adolescent (i.e. university student) research subjects weren’t thrilled with the idea of a partner having sex with mom or dad did he he carefully control for differences in the same student’s reaction to the prospect of mom and dad having sex with each other? Because, dude, most young people cover their ears and go “la la la” about that.
For instance did he spend time discussing the peculiarly popular genre of written and photo porn with labels like “hot wife” and “loving wives” seem to have on middle-aged men? Did he assay the relative popularity of these stories based on the affinities of the approved-of interlopers who, as I recall, very often involve male relatives, best friends, and employers or employees?
And of course did he do any screening to answer j2bryson elementary question about people’s well-documented aversion to provide controversial answers to controversial questions?*
In other words while hopping all over the place trying to demonstrate evolutionary psychology did he do any psychology psychology?
Until proved otherwise I’ll assume, of course, that the answer is yes on all counts and that Geher’s confident that despite his small and narrow sample size he’s adequately filtered out all possible noise from his data such that the only possible explanation for his results involve inherited behavior selected for over many thousands of generations and preserved for many thousands more.
Ok, I’m not. I’m pretty sure he did none of those things. But if I find out he did all that, and that his findings are indeed incontrovertible, then you’ll see the retraction right here.
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What puzzles me is why evolutionary psychologists rarely investigate the almost certainly selected for tendency in humans, especially young adults, to gravitate towards group conformity that j2bryson. It’s easily reproduced (in fact it’s difficult to avoid.) It’s almost certainly less complex demonstrating a general human behavior than the kind of highly-contingent sexually dimorphic behavior. Especially since the gendered nature of that behavior often dissolves or even reverses as individuals age. But no, despite complexities that make their tasks almost exponentially more difficult it’s all sex or nothing at all with these guys.
I mention this in part to counter a conceit, forwarded by a number of Evolutionary Psychologists including Prof. Gher (pdf) that the only alternative to their specific variety of evolutionary psychology_ is either religious fundamentalism or…
...a new kind of creationist (Ehrenreich & McIntosh, 1997), so to speak, rooted in secular intellectualism. These so-called new creationists are, in fact, very different from fundamentalist Christians in their ideological foundation. The new creationists may be conceptualized as academics and scholars who study varied aspects of human affairs from the perspective of the Standard Social Science Model (SSSM; Pinker, 2002), a model for understanding human behavior which is largely premised on the notion of the blank slate.
First of all, sorry, whatever else one might call Barbara Ehrenreich she’s got enough history of science credentials to deserve better epithets. Second of all, as I think I demonstrate pretty consistently including in this post above, one can be entirely sympathetic to the notion of natural selection on behavior… while still being completely impatient with sloppy methodology, conclusion overreach, and unbelievably consistent status-quo-oriented selection bias in subject matter in the face of almost no basic research. That professors and department heads must resort to accusations of secular “creationism” in order to fend of criticism from other scientists speaks volumes.




You stopped where you
Submitted by psychology student (not verified) on Wed, 2010-01-06 20:03.You stopped where you stopped, and I stopped at the part where you say that you don’t have unpaid access to journals. If you don’t have access to journals, don’t read journals, rely on media articles and haven’t studied psychology, then you can’t really
validlyargue your point. But judging from the dearth of reader feedback in this blog, I’m guessing that people have woken up to your opinionated baseless drivel.[It’s true. If I’d never read journals or textbooks, relied only on media articles, and had never studied psychology then I couldn’t validly argue my point. Of course I have studied psychology, plus evolutionary theory, plus the history and philosophy of science. Although since I haven’t been in academia for decades, no I don’t have ungated journal access. Try substantive criticism, it works better. For instance you could say “I’ve read or participated in my professor’s research project and I can assure you he was indeed meticulous about filtering out statistical noise and he did take into account all potential confounding factors.” That would work as evidence and, as I said in the post, I’d issue a retraction. Otherwise I’m unsympathetic. —fl]
“psychology student” – As
Submitted by SnowdropExplodes (not verified) on Thu, 2010-01-07 03:40.“psychology student” –
As I understand it, figleaf is making comments about general scientific methodology, such that I (with a training in science and mathematics) can clearly see what criticisms he is making and consider whether they may or may not be justified on the grounds of scientific method.
Inasmuch as psychology depends upon statistical analysis of data (much as biology, chemistry and even physics do these days) then figleaf’s observations can be regarded as valid purely on the grounds of the statistical analysis. Indeed, the criticisms he is making are very similar to those that Richard Feynman made of some (though not all) psychology research back in the 1960s.
Media reporting is sketchy, we have to admit that, and figleaf does so in his piece. As figleaf says, if someone is able to demonstrate that in this case, proper scientific methodology was applied then so much the better, and we can all say “silly us, we are sorry for ever having doubted Prof. Geher’s exemplary work”. But the conclusions seem to go far further than the data can support them, meaning that at some point science has stopped and it is Geher’s findings that might be “opinionated baseless drivel”.
It’s interesting the
Submitted by Zeborah (not verified) on Wed, 2010-01-06 21:14.It’s interesting the different conclusions different people can draw from the same data. For example, the anon psych student concludes “from the dearth of reader feedback” that people don’t read you, whereas my conclusion from the same data is that you only published the post a few minutes before s/he responded.
As for the research in question, I tend to take it as axiomatic that the media has misquoted, distorted, exaggerated, and sensationalised the actual study out of all recognition. It always does; but always.
So I won’t say a word about the research; but to the reporting of it by the media I’d point out another obvious alternative: that when your boyfriend cheats on you with a stranger, that’s one person betraying you, but when he cheats on you with your sister, that’s two people betraying you. Of course people feel worse when two people betray them than when only one does.
[Oops, that too. Wouldn’t it be nice if researchers who wanted to demonstrate inherited behavior started out trying to test more easily-isolated and less statistically noisy behaviors? Thanks, Zeborah. —fl]
Well, it’s not just ev-psych
Submitted by Nightfall (not verified) on Wed, 2010-01-06 22:38.Well, it’s not just ev-psych that suffers from total logic failure, nearly all sciences do at some point. It just seems like ev-psych does so more often than most because it’s sort of a fusion of aspects of 2 other sciences (evolution and psychology) which are both pretty inexact right now as it is.
Let’s demonstrate with an example of astronomy logic fail. Now I don’t know what the current take on the issue is because it’s been over a decade since I paid any attention, so this may be out of date. When I was a child, they said there were two possibilities for how the asteroid belt formed, one being leftover debris from the formation of the solar system, another being a planet which exploded or was torn apart or something. Later on they declared that the “former planet” theory was mostly discarded, simply because they had measured the total mass of the asteroid belt and found it to be a fraction of a percent of the earth’s moon. That’s not enough to form a planet, so leftover debris it is.
WTF? Are/were they on crack? That disproves nothing. Facts in order:
#1 Any planet, or dwarf planet, or planetoid, or whatever, which was in that orbital position would probably have to be smaller than Mars, possibly far smaller, as Jupiter’s formation would have sucked off a lot of the available material from that region. And there are a lot of planet-like bodies in the solar system which are far smaller than Mars, or even our moon for that matter.
#2 Space has 3 dimensions. And anything which could explode or shred a planet would require an ungodly amount of energy and/or gravity. Just how much of the remaining mass (that which wasn’t converted to dust and/or sucked up by a crushing gravity well) do you think is going to end up on the exact same stable orbit as the original planet? I’d say very, very little.
#3 Billions of years are a long, long, long time. Plenty of time for most of the debris in unstable or highly elliptical orbits to fly out of the solar system, fall into the sun, get swept up by planets, etc.
#4 Out of all the remaining “asteroids” which are not part of the belt and still exist today, we probably only know of a small (and possibly very tiny) fraction of them anyway. Scientists have been (seemingly) largely focused on finding those which cross near or over Earth’s orbit – probably missing quite a lot of those closer in or further out. Not to mention, again, that space has 3 freaking dimensions – any stable orbits which resulted after the formation of the solar system don’t have to conform to the solar system’s standard orbital plane! So there may even be a lot of stuff still out there (scattered, mostly, so it’s very hard to see – space is unimaginably huge, and even a mile-wide rock is tiny) where we wouldn’t think to look for it.
Now there may be good reasons to think that some of what I said is not nearly as relevant as it sounds; or that even if it is all very relevant, there should still be far more mass than is actually there. But I’ve never seen things like that addressed anywhere, even in science journals. And since that “simple” explanation, taken at face value, could be demolished by a child (though perhaps not easily for most children or even adults) with only basic physics knowledge… it seems like sometimes even expert scientists tend to make too many intuition-based assumptions when science seems to be a large part about discovering where intuition-based assumptions fail us!
And to end it back on subject, ev-psych may be very prone to this because it’s a very inexact science, and often unexamined assumptions (and likely often ones which they don’t realize are unexamined) are all they have to work with.
[Hi Nightfall. I agree that a lot of what’s known about the asteroid belt was based on speculation, and that that speculation has become much better informed with the advent of better computers for modeling gravitation and really, really good telescopes. If and when Ev-Psych gets access to comparable tools I’m sure their speculations will be better informed as well. (Seriously, I’m confident of that.) What’s problematic for me is that ev-psych too often doesn’t appear to arise to the standards of either evolutionary biology (which has also become a lot more exact with the advent of computers and biotech) or psychology, sociology, or anthropology, or cognitive science, or even peripheral behavioral studies like market research. What’s frustrating is that rather than working to piece out the basics in the very complex field (compared to almost any other animal) of human behavior they jump, repeatedly, into the most complex types of compound (i.e. interpersonal, sexual) behaviors with the greatest chances of unconsidered cultural artifacts and biases. It’s not that one couldn’t do good research on behaviors that are shaped by selective pressure. It’s that they keep not doing it. Oh, and one last thing. I’m not saying nobody is doing it. Some are and most of those we never hear of. But you’d at least expect the high-fliers to cite basic researchers, but I don’t see much of that either. Instead they mostly cite each other. Again, frustrating. —fl]
Actually my point was more
Submitted by Nightfall (not verified) on Fri, 2010-01-08 15:53.Actually my point was more like that whenever new facts come along, confirmed or not, even expert scientists seem to jump to conclusions where they really shouldn’t. Or at least, the ones who tend to rush into the media spotlight rather than take their time to really work out whether such conclusions are really warranted seem to do this. Now when we have advanced modeling tools and such the more idiotic logic failures can usually be dispensed with quickly, and obviously ev-psych either doesn’t have or doesn’t use such things yet. Just pointing out that it’s not unique to this field.
Do you know what scientists really need? Jesters. I’m not kidding. A good jester is the type of person who can point out such things in the process of making fun of people as well as provide unconsidered perspectives through their humor.
[“rather than take their time to really work out whether such conclusions are really warranted seem to do this.” That’s the key phrase. And why it persistently bugs me that they keep trying out highly beginner methods on really, really complex, often highly-contingent behaviors. That and they seem congenitally incapable of imagining that any adaptions are driven by anything but specific, direct mating behavior. And finally, about jesters, this is actually an area where I think David Barash is right — you do need non-serious people throwing out wild-assed ideas because that keeps creativity flowing… but you also need non-serious people throwing wild-assed ideas out because since, like every other human endeavor, can get unhealthy fixations on certain memes. Like, oh, for instance, that anything even remotely associated with reproduction must be mate-selecting behavior, and that all such behavior is ultimately selected for. And, worst, that those selected behaviors can be resolved with current technology operating on really small sample sizes. Thanks, Nightfall. —fl]
I heart evolutionary
Submitted by The Beautiful Kind (not verified) on Thu, 2010-01-07 06:18.I heart evolutionary psychology.
Also, my partner has huge respect for me and his father, and he would be down with us hooking up. So kinky and hot!!! I would be down, too but Father Dear is in a monogamous marriage.
I’d be OK with my partner sleeping with my relatives or anyone else, for that matter, but I doubt he’d go for my mom, she’s pretty gross.
As long as I am Number One in his life and getting my emotional and physical needs met, I don’t care who he sleeps with. I trust him to make good decisions.
The “creationist” slur is
Submitted by Holly Pervocracy (not verified) on Thu, 2010-01-07 09:01.The “creationist” slur is interesting, because I am a creationist in that sense—I believe that two intelligent beings collaborated to create me, quite recently in fact. I’m a young-Holly creationist.
Humans evolved, but individuals are created, and though there are certainly some preexisting marks on their slates there’s also a lot of blank space to be filled by culture and experience and even individual thought. The job of evolutionary psychology is (well, should be) to sort out which is which, not to come up with caveman just-so stories about every damn behavior out there. Every blatantly cultural phenomenon that gets explained with “well, you see, CAVEladies were aroused by the smell of CAVEcologne” takes away a little more credibility from ev-psych.
I am stealing that first
Submitted by Diatryma (not verified) on Thu, 2010-01-07 10:32.I am stealing that first paragraph. It pleases me so much.