Lynn Gazis-Sax of Noli Irritare Leones, reflecting on Hugo Schwyzer’s recent post endorsing the idea that orientation might be somewhat plastic after all raises a really important distinction.
Mutable and malleable aren’t the same thing. One of the reasons that the APA removed homosexuality from its list of mental illnesses was that reparative therapy, despite repeated efforts, really did have a super lousy track record (the other reason was, of course, that psychiatrists became less willing to believe that homosexuality was particularly broken). It still does. But people do sometimes shift along the Kinsey scale. Not generally from one end to the complete opposite, but still enough to be significant. Sexual orientation is sometimes mutable, but does not appear to be as malleable as it is mutable; no one has found a way of consciously changing it that works with any regularity at all. And those people who do experience shifts appear to experience them in unpredictable ways, that you can’t bottle up and use to get the same result in someone else.
That’s the distinction I was missing in, this post about the absurdity of people worrying about “protecting” heterosexuality, for instance, when trying to explain my conviction that orientation is innate.
Since I think orientation is a lot more complex than we’re led to believe I’m perfectly comfortable with it’s being mutable — that who we’re attracted to can shift over time. I’m not comfortable, however, with the idea that orientation is malleable — that one can externally influence another to change what they desire unless they’re ready at that point in their life to be disposed to that influence in the first place.




It’s pretty evident that
Submitted by Sungold (not verified) on Thu, 2010-02-25 07:17.It’s pretty evident that behavior can be changed to a limited extent by things like extreme aversive therapy and the death penalty for sodomy (common in Europe until the modern era). It’s also blindingly clear that some people will risk their lives to pursue the partners and acts that feel right to them, and that those whose behavior is suppressed will suffer greatly while continuing to feel the same attractions.
So yes, this distinction between internally mutable versus externally malleable is really important – not just because it’s true, but because it exposes how unethical it is to try to impose an orientation on people.
I think the comparison to
Submitted by Mary Kaye (not verified) on Thu, 2010-02-25 08:31.I think the comparison to religion is, while dangerous, somewhat helpful. You can’t just up and decide to change your religion, much less have someone external change it for you. But people do change their religions from time to time, at points in their life when it makes sense.
I spent a fair amount of time in the religious equivalent of “gay living as straight”. It’s not a good place to be. The pressure wasn’t all external; I was making a sincere effort. But it turns out I make both a crummy Christian and a crappy atheist, and getting that straightened out improved my mental health significantly.
Of course, sexual orientation
Submitted by Red (not verified) on Thu, 2010-02-25 18:10. Of course, sexual orientation isn’t 100% innate. If culture and upbringing can never have any influence at all, how in the world do you explain prison homosexuality? Or ancient Greece?! I’m not saying that sexual orientation is entirely determined by the environment, and certainly not making a case for the Freudian model of such things. But I think that many people CAN be influenced by the culture and their experiences. Or have a history of Kinsey scale mobility that was not just a matter of “jumping in and out of the closet”.Personally, I’ve always been heterosexual despite the fact that according to Freudian theory my relationship with my Dad was a classic set up for lesbianism. I could-and have-used that as an example of sexual orientation being innate and Freud being wrong. But then again, Freud was dealing with a very specific cultural environment than I grew up in. And I can’t rule out any number of factors mattering.
And if I had been raised in ancient Sparta (and survived with my history of childhood ear infections!!) who the hell knows
Ah, I’ve been making the same
Submitted by jmerry (not verified) on Thu, 2010-02-25 19:41.Ah, I’ve been making the same point over at the AVEN forums. The other part of it is that I speak from experience- I had a crush in high school, and haven’t been attracted to anyone since. I’m aromantic asexual now, but I wasn’t then. This wasn’t a conscious change, and it was subtle enough that I didn’t even realize there was a change until years after the fact.
To put it pithily, not acting on that crush was a choice. Not being attracted to anyone since wasn’t a choice.
You need to check your email
Submitted by Holly Pervocracy (not verified) on Fri, 2010-02-26 10:14.You need to check your email again!