Great quote from solo artist and Dresden Dolls co-founder Amanda Palmer in Spin magazine
"I've been really shocked and distressed to find out that 8- and 9-year-old girls are getting all their pubic hairs waxed off by their mothers," she says. "I think if I have any purpose at all, it's to stand up there and say, 'Oh, no, no, no, no, girls. You totally have a choice. You can wax it, you can shave it, you can grow it out, and this really is up to you.' That's the way that I feel about everything, that you just need to know there's a choice out there."
Adds Pope, the director: "On the surface, it's a song about girls growing out their pubes. Underneath that, however, is a call to everyone, woman and man alike, to discover the courage to be themselves. Whoever that may be."
Source: Spin
That sounds exactly right. I couldn't find the right post this morning but I remember Holly of The Pervocracy saying that for her the decision to remove her pubic hair signaled adulthood rather than pre-pubescence. There are obviously plenty of good cases for never fiddling with your body hair at all in adulthood but this isn't about that. Beyond basic sanitation whatever one's choice might be, as a child or an adult, it ought to be your choice and not your parents. And yeah, having your mom decide to wax you isn't as permanent as other decisions parents make: piercing ears, circumcision, or sex reassignment surgery come to mind, so if it's just getting waxed you can stop once you're out of the house. (Right, as if only permanent physical alterations leave mental scars.) So let's just add this to the list of things you should leave it to the child to decide. When he or she grows up.
(Note: based on conversation with teachers and other parents this is one of those areas where a) daughters are more subject to parental pressure and b) moms tend to bring more of that pressure to bear.)
Another note on the pubic hair, just to tease my friend Chingona, who's promised never to go easy on me about pubic hair pontificating: the real question to ask these days isn't so much why women are or aren't grooming their pubic hair. Instead it should be why men aren't doing it more -- after all the same esthetic, hygenic, and sensory arguments ought to apply both ways. Actually, technically, to the extent they apply at all they do apply both ways.
(Link to Palmer quote via SexIsNotTheEnemy)
Update: Palmer's assertion that mothers are waxing their 8-year-olds may be related to this article in The Frisky which reports spa owners in the Bay Area and NYC are trying to build a market for it. So with any luck it could be another one of those all sizzle, no steak stories like rainbow bracelets, vagazzling, or labiaplasty. (I gotta say, though, the telling line would be a spa owner in NYC who said "in 10 years, waxing children will be like taking them to the dentist or putting braces on their teeth." Um, yeah. Waxing? Braces tightening? What child could possibly object?
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Agreed that hair can grow
Submitted by Sungold (not verified) on Thu, 2011-01-27 23:02.Agreed that hair can grow back, unlike foreskin. That's an important distinction.
But I think it's not so simple as this: "so if it's just getting waxed you can stop once you're out of the house." By then, girls have learned that pubic hair is shameful. (The German word for pubic hair is Schamhaar - literally, "shame hair," or "modest hair." I know that's not directly relevant here, and yet??) It's mothers who have delivered that message. Girls are going to be deeply marked by their mothers' expectations.
And at age 8? I didn't know it was even common to grow pubic hair at that age. If a girl hits puberty that soon, I'd say her parents ought to consult with a doctor, not a salon that provides Brazilians.
Chingona and I are on a pretty similar wavelength when it comes to this topic. What is "choice" when 95% or more of the pressure is to follow one particular course, and other choices are penalized?
To give an example from a different area: Like millions of other women with workplace ambitions, I "chose" to be the stay-at-home parent when my first child was born. It was a choice hemmed in by a few dozen different forces. People have agency, but we don't necessarily default to free choices and untrammeled free will as soon as we leave our parents' homes. Instead, we carry our old baggage and keep adding to it.
"By then, girls have learned
Submitted by figleaf on Fri, 2011-01-28 00:12."By then, girls have learned that pubic hair is shameful."
Dang it all! I almost included a disclaimer that not all permanent damage is physical but it kept getting longer and further from the main point, which remains that even at age five, let alone eight, ten, or fifteen, children aren't their parent's paper dolls.
And yeah, shame leaves scars.
Thanks, Sungold,
fl
p.s. I've modified the post.
Submitted by figleaf on Fri, 2011-01-28 00:29.p.s. I've modified the post. Re-reading it it really did sound like I was brushing it off as no big deal. If I'd thought so I wouldn't have bothered writing in the first place. --fl
Sadly, hitting puberty at 8
Submitted by Kay (not verified) on Fri, 2011-02-04 14:44.Sadly, hitting puberty at 8 is not uncommon any more - it is not a reason to see a doctor (although it's certainly not a reason to see a beautician!) . It was not uncommon 10 years ago, even. The earlier onset of puberty in girls is thought to be due to environmental pollution and rise in the number of girls who are overweight.
I call this abuse and
Submitted by adela (not verified) on Fri, 2011-01-28 00:16.I call this abuse and assault. Waxing is painful. You are getting a stranger to be in and around a child's genitalia for non medical reasons and children can not give meaningful consent to that.
Who are these people -
Submitted by tlt (not verified) on Fri, 2011-01-28 00:25.Who are these people - besides all the other wrongness in this - who have time and money to to be taking a third grader to get waxed? And who is running these salons? I thought most of them didn't work on anyone younger than 13.
And how exactly do you explain to the little girl why this painful, embarrassing thing has to be done? Seems like it would be a lot faster, easier and cheaper to have a conversation with the child about the hair.
And at age 8? I didn't know
Submitted by chingona on Fri, 2011-01-28 01:00.And at age 8? I didn't know it was even common to grow pubic hair at that age. If a girl hits puberty that soon, I'd say her parents ought to consult with a doctor, not a salon that provides Brazilians.
Eight is pretty young, but I was shaving my armpits and legs (and getting my period) by the time I was 11, and that's still pretty young, emotionally and psychologically speaking.
You know what's funny? I distinctly remember getting armpit hair because I had to start shaving (or felt like I had to start shaving). I don't even remember getting pubic hair. I didn't have it and then at some point I did, but I don't even remember it - because it didn't need to be "dealt with." Based on that Feministe thread on pubic and other body hair from a while back, it seems like most women in their early 20s are starting to shave or wax their pubic hair around that same age now, even without their mothers getting involved.
And I think I'll just leave it at that: Pressure to conform to social norms (not from my mother, who is/was a dirty hippie - figuratively speaking) is so strong that it's only through that lens that I even remember fairly significant aspects of entering puberty. I choose my choice!
Right on all counts, I think,
Submitted by figleaf on Fri, 2011-01-28 02:06.Right on all counts, I think, Chingona. While I'm hoping Palmer was just being a little hyperbolic it's certainly the case that even years ago kindergartners were feeling pressured from home to keep shaved what ever traces of leg hair kids that age might have.
My one quibble would be that in my own first and second hand experience hippies have plenty of norms of their own and wow are they able to impose them on their kids. If your parents gave you room to make your own choices that's pretty wonderful. I think most parents do but yeah, not all. (To echo Sungold, if anyone should feel shame...)
Thanks.
fl
Sure. I meant quite
Submitted by chingona on Fri, 2011-01-28 09:29.Sure. I meant quite specifically pressure to engage in hair removal. My point was that kids can experience significant pressure without it coming from their parents.
Though, on further thought, I don't think pressure not to engage in conventional beauty rituals is anything like the pressure to engage in them. My mom thinks pedicures are dumb and a waste of money. I get one three or four times a year and think it's harmless adornment and a relaxing way to spend 45 minutes. I'm an adult and I do what I want. On the other hand, I'm one of the few women in my social circle who feels comfortable leaving the house without make-up. It is WAY WAY easier to take stuff up as an adult than to undo early conditioning.
But ... are parents really pressuring their prepubescent children to shave? Really? In middle school, I have no trouble at all imagining a mother telling her daughter she needs to shave at least her legs and pits, but are they really telling their kindergartners to do so? Is this based on something real or is it the feminist equivalent of rainbow parties?
Another good point,
Submitted by figleaf on Fri, 2011-01-28 12:32.Another good point, Chingona. A good role for parents is to help their children keep social pressure in perspective rather than to amplify it or add their own. (This obviously isn't to say parents should *parent,* just that there's a difference between guidance and discipline on the one hand and direct intrusion on the other.)
The source of the kindergarten leg-shaver story was a first-person account by a friend who was a Montessori teacher.
As for the source of 8-year-old bikini waxing, Palmer may have been responding to this post from The Frisky about moms taking their daughters to waxing salons. There's evidently a certain internal logic to the notion -- the salon operators and/or the moms are deciding (probably correctly but that's not the point) that by starting as early as possible will keep hair from developing to a point where it would really hurt. Note that I said "internal logic," not logic. Finally, if the parents are from a culture or tradition where body hair removal is, say, a religious obligation (as it's supposed to be in Islam for all sexes) that might be different. I don't get the impression from The Frisky that that's what's going on though. (I should be careful to add, though, that if it's just a handful of salons in one town then it could still be a "rainbow bracelet" story.)
Finally, mmm, pedicures. I haven't had very many but they're actually pretty great.
Thanks, Chingona,
figleaf
Frequent waxing does cause
Submitted by AVR (not verified) on Fri, 2011-01-28 03:04.Frequent waxing does cause the hair to grow back thinner, so it is actually kind of a permanent change they're making to their kids' bodies.
This is true. And repeated
Submitted by Feyline (not verified) on Fri, 2011-01-28 22:48.This is true. And repeated plucking can damage the follicles and make hair grow back sticking out oddly, or ingrown, or patchily. Not as extreme as missing a chunk of your genitals, but still a permanent change.
I would have died of shame at
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Sat, 2011-01-29 14:54.I would have died of shame at that age if i had to show my genitals to anyone, my parents included. Seeing them PAYING a STRANGER to not only look at them, but TOUCH them and cause PAIN? On a regular basis? Horror of horrors.
Yes - the more I think about
Submitted by Sungold (not verified) on Sat, 2011-01-29 14:57.Yes - the more I think about this, the more I tend to agree with Adela's comment above that this is a kind of abuse. And what happens if a child - let's say even a 13- or 14-year-old - learns so young to associate pain with their genitals? How many will simply be turned off to sex? I know we don't have a good fix on how many young teens are even getting waxed, so I'm not asking for numbers (obviously), but those questions aren't merely rhetorical, either.
Yeah, it's not just a
Submitted by figleaf on Sat, 2011-01-29 17:12.Yeah, it's not just a boundary issue for sure. I also agree it's a form of abuse. No matter how "well intentioned." Grrr. Thanks, Sungold. --fl
OMG totally! I've got
Submitted by figleaf on Sat, 2011-01-29 17:11.OMG totally! I've got children that age right now and it's kind of unimaginable that they'd put up with it willingly. Or that it woudn't have consequences for them. I mean, for crying out loud they've grown up practically nudists and they're now body shy. Which makes them pretty much like all other nudist kids -- they really don't much like to a) see them selves or b) be seen. They outgrow it, sure, but not till their late teens. And if they've got body consciousness how the heck are kids who don't grow up with casual nudity supposed to deal with it? Geez!
Thanks, Anonymous.
fl