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In the Free Thoughts section of SciForum darksidZz offers interesting insight into why "nice guys finish last"
it seems the idea of nice guys finish last may hold true, some women give interesting reasons however that got me thinking, "are nice guys really so nice?" What's interesting to me is women state the following:
- Nice guys think they're the only ones that can make you happy
- Nice guys are boring
- Nice guys are pushovers and will do anything for the girl
- Nice guys don't get angry, but when they do watch out
- Nice guys pretend to be nice
I'd like some more input on this topic. It would seem nice guys when rejected get angry and upset, perhaps due to their creepy natures?! That's exactly what girls say, they are creepy!
Any nice guys that have insight here? Women have said if the guy thinks of himself as "nice guy" he's usually crazy, selfish, egotistical, etc. I'm tending to agree when I consider how I act, lol
Source: SciForums
It's a provocative point but I think it meshes well with other posts I've written about the way we tend to let the certainty of our own low self-esteem or low self-image trump often very glowing feedback from others. Especially in the context of the way people tend to agree with a single critic who's low opinion agrees with our own... against the opinions of possibly hundreds of others who might admire us greatly. I really appreciate DarksidZz's point that the disconnect can cut both ways.
So. To the extent people are poor judges of our own character and qualities, and generally speaking we're pretty poor judges, if we think we're "a nice guy who just finishes last" we might want to make sure there's a consensus that we really are, in fact, nice guys.
It's incontestable that Steve Carell's Michael Scott character in The Office's thinks he's a nice guy. It's similarly incontestable that he always finishes last. It is obviously not the case, however, that the reason he always finishes last is because he's actually a nice guy. Quite the opposite.
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It's interesting that you
Submitted by Xakudo (not verified) on Sun, 2011-01-16 19:25.It's interesting that you bring up Michael Scott. I don't see him as "creepy". There's not much of anything dangerous in him. Nothing to be scared of. At worst he's aggrivating and frustrating. In a lot of ways I see him as a pitiable character. He just wants to be liked.
If that's Nice Guy(tm), I'm not sure what all the fuss is about with this being a feminist issue.
I don't think "creepy"
Submitted by figleaf on Mon, 2011-01-17 00:30.I don't think "creepy" applies to the "nice guys finish last" paradox. Nor is it necessary. All one needs to be to finish last is to be, as you said, aggravating and frustrating. Which sort of rules out what people generally tend to mean when they describe themself or someone else as "nice." And the point of my post is that by understanding that a lot of the paradox of (self-described) nice guys finishing last can be understood as well. It's not to say that there aren't also genuinely nice guys who also finish last -- if two by-consensus nice guys flip a coin one of them's going to come in last. But at least in romance that's not what's meant when it's said.
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I find that it's Toby who has
Submitted by Anna (not verified) on Sun, 2011-01-16 20:39.I find that it's Toby who has the most Nice Guy characteristics. They didn't make him completely creepy when he had his Pam crush but he certainly had some elements. Michael Scott is overbearing, egotistical, aggressive and needy when but he's pretty open about what he's doing and what he wants so he lacks the passive aggressiveness. He can certainly be creepy (like his relationship with Carol early on in season 2) but not so much Nice Guy creepy.
Oh, brother. I had the worst
Submitted by tlt (not verified) on Mon, 2011-01-17 01:15.Oh, brother. I had the worst "Nice Guy" experience last night. A guy who lives in my building - who's in his early 40s, has been married and divorced and is the father of a 15-year-old - was (I guess) trying to chat me up. He kept saying and doing the most appallingly inappropriate and ignorant things. Like what? Like asking me when the last time I'd had sex was, trying to sit on my lap, touching me over and over and OVER, showing me how big his hands were and making reference to being "blessed", then asking me things like "Does it really matter to a woman how big a man's penis is?", "Do you like kissing?" "Can I look at your feet?" and whether I'd ever had any sexual interaction with another woman.
He then told me that I was "very unsocial" because I didn't want to stop what I was doing and have some inane conversation with him the last time I was in the workout room, you know, working out.
Every time I would say something to him like "You know, that's a really inappropriate question to ask someone you don't even know," he'd say some dumb thing like "You don't like me very much, do you?" I guess he expected me to turn myself all inside out to make him feel better.
I'm absolutely certain that he thinks he's nice. He doesn't realize that trying to get a woman to do what he wants through pouting, whining and pestering, then trying to make her feel bad for not falling all over herself apologizing for hurting his wittle fewwings is nowhere in the neighborhood of nice.
I don't know how his ability to interact with women got stuck at the level of a spoiled teenager who watches too much TV, but someone seriously needs to tell him about himself.
Thing is, he seems to be a really interesting guy. His parents are from Pakistan, he was raised in Brussels and Miami. He speaks several languages and made a lot of money in really un-glamorous ways, like buying and selling mundane businesses like truckstops and parking facilities, and he's about to buy a bar up the street. When he wasn't saying infuriating, rude things we were actually having a good time talking about music and TV shows from the 80s.
Too bad he'll probably spend the rest of his life wondering why all the women here are so mean.
Well, my question then is,
Submitted by Thaddeus Blanchette (not verified) on Mon, 2011-01-17 06:37.Well, my question then is, why are guys like this?
Why do we overrate/underrate ourselves consistently?
I mean, it seems to me that if the the feminist thesis is that men are the way they are because they have the power, why do men consistently end up making themselves miserable when (supposedly) small adjustments in behavior and outlook are all that's necessary to make themsleves happy?
I should note, however, that one woman's "creepy" is another woman's "cute". Plenty of men apparently get plenty of positive feedback from what I would classify as "creepy" behavior. The fact of the matter is this, it seems to me (and surfing on your comments re: the one good thing about so-called "pick up masters" and their "infalible techniques"):
Human sexual tastes are incredibly diverse. So diverse that pretty much any behavior you choose to adopt will attract a mate somehow, somewhere. A strategy that seems almost guaranteed to find oneself a mate, then, is to simply interact with as many different people as possible.
I mean, I agree with tit, that I'd be creeped out by the guy she describes. I guarantee, however, that there are women who'd find that sort of behavior "cute" - or at least not totally repulsive. If that "nice guy" simply does that with 10-15 women a week, within six months, his odds of finding a woman willing to share his bed are around 100%.
It seems to me that this is at the root of why guys overrate/underrate themselves: we presume that there's some sort of "correct" and "proper" code for mating and there isn't, so you'll rate yourself depending on your self-confidence at the time. Trying to judge your personality based on how people react to your flirts is a serious waste of time, because given the vast variety in people's tastes and reactions, how is one supposed to draw a baseline from which to judge?
I mean seriously, Fig: the panacea that you've prescribed here on several occasions and which I see prescribed all over the feminist blogosphere for dealing with someone you like: "Tell her openly and honestly what you feel" is rated as über-creepy by many women. I agree with it, as far as it goes, but I'd add the rider "And be prepared to fall flat on your face. But don't worry: there are plenty of other people out there for you to like and certainly one of them will sooner or later like you back".
Hi Thaddeus, "Tell her
Submitted by figleaf on Thu, 2011-01-20 12:33.Hi Thaddeus,
"Tell her openly and honestly" unfortunately isn't a panacea. And anyway "tell her openly and honestly" doesn't mean randomly volunteering that you just want a blowjob. Or a lifetime committment.
But look at TLT's neighbor: he spent the whole conversation fishing and skirting the issue and making third-person sort of remarks in a way that sort of implied that he *wasn't* trying to sound personally interested in starting something with her. That's not at all "creepy," but it isn't being open or honest either.
And for the record, I think "open and honest" is a bit misplaced. What's important is learning to make a *connection* first. Not a "love at first sight" connection, and not a "sure I'll help you move your cannon-ball collection any time" connection, just a connection connection.
And the thing is that when you're just trying to make a connection it doesn't really matter if you fall flat. Nor, at the end of the day, is making connections ever really a waste of time.
And, at least in my long, painful, frustrating, and then finally successful experience it's about 1,000 times easier to make a sexual connection with someone you've just plain connected with than it is to make the sexual connection first. No matter how open or honestly you do that. It's not that you can't do it, it's that it's 1000 times harder.
The other thing about making non-sexual connections though, that goes back to my original point and the point that TLT was making, is that just because it's a non-sexual connection you don't have to make *asexual* connections! Just *non* sexual ones. Because there's a huge difference. The regular, non-predatory "nice guy" tactic, sort of like TLT's guy, is to pretend a sexual overture would never be on the table even if the topic is about sex.
The other thing I figured out... no, I didn't actually figure it out, I had to be told by a single friend who for years literally never slept alone... is that you have to not mind if the connection doesn't become a sexual one. A corollary of that would be that if you wouldn't be trying to connect with someone unless you wanted to have sex with him or her then... it's probably not going to work, and if it does work it still probably won't lead to sex.
Not sure that answers your question but based on first, second, and third-hand experience it's what people who make sexual connections seem to do.
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It seems that NiceGals finish
Submitted by Christina (not verified) on Mon, 2011-01-17 13:32.It seems that NiceGals finish last also.......
The only time I find a man to be boring, is when he's insistent in getting one to notice him; like looking at his picture will change your mind. A man's character and his integrity and his humor are what is most important to me! Looks matter but not that much; as they say, handsome is as handsome does...
I found your blog purely this afternoon by accident!
Exactly. As you say, it's
Submitted by figleaf on Thu, 2011-01-20 12:49.Exactly. As you say, it's not that looks don't matter, there's just more to attraction than that. The Grand Canyon or the Taj Mahal are very good looking but I wouldn't want to go out with them. :-)
Thanks for dropping by, Christina. You're welcome back any time.
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Hello Figleaf and
Submitted by Primula (not verified) on Mon, 2011-01-17 15:48.Hello Figleaf and friends,
In my opinion, the most comprehensive, funniest and smartest analysis of Nice Guys can be found here - at Heartless Bitches International. If Nice Guys do indeed finish last, the reasons are clearly outlined in the numerous articles.
That creep in the apartment obviously oblivious to his creepdom, he has much to learn!
@tit - I especially hope you find the articles pinpoint the issue, enjoy the reading!
Primula
Thanks! I hadn't read HBI in
Submitted by tlt (not verified) on Mon, 2011-01-17 19:28.Thanks! I hadn't read HBI in years, I wasn't even sure they were still around. They were blogging before "blogging" even had a name.
I think they're just hanging
Submitted by Primula (not verified) on Mon, 2011-01-17 19:50.I think they're just hanging in there! I hope they survive, what a wonderful resource they are!
If in doubt, keep going back! It's brutally and hilariously clear in the words of Natalie and the other wonderful HBs ;) best to you tit!
and - I'm glad to find this very smart blog too! thank you figleaf :)
Primula
Good to know HBI is still
Submitted by figleaf on Thu, 2011-01-20 12:52.Good to know HBI is still around. They're either dormant enough, or their site software is old enough, that their posts never show up in my newsreader. So I sort of forget about them.
Thanks for the reminder, Primula,
And yeah, they do rock.
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Well, the Nice Guy paradox is
Submitted by Reader (not verified) on Wed, 2011-01-19 00:29.Well, the Nice Guy paradox is pretty much the same as the honest used car salesman paradox. It's generally a much better bet to go to the used car salesman others call honest than the one who advertises himself as honest.
I'm not entirely sure I
Submitted by schnee (not verified) on Wed, 2011-01-19 17:10.I'm not entirely sure I understand the paradox aspect, but I imagine it could be solved by defining 'nice guys' as 'men who prioritise the needs of their sexual partners'.
I'm a woman, and I don't share any of the perceptions of the forum's female respondents about who or what nice guys are.
I think probably, as so much does, it comes down to trying to fit some socially constructed gender role.
I'd go a step further and say
Submitted by figleaf on Thu, 2011-01-20 12:57.I'd go a step further and say that I think a genuinely nice guy properly prioritizes *his own* sexual needs as well. At least in the sense of keeping it in perspective. At a minimum you can't just want to have sex, you have to want to have sex *with!* And no, not "with" in the sense of "I want to open the can 'with' this can opener" either. :-)
Thanks schnee,
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I always thought "Nice Guys
Submitted by Boomer (not verified) on Sat, 2011-01-22 13:21.I always thought "Nice Guys Finish Last" meant that we made sure our sex partners climaxed first.
Oops.
No, that would be nice *men!*
Submitted by figleaf on Sun, 2011-01-23 22:59.No, that would be nice *men!* :-) Thanks! --fl
Most women aren't looking for
Submitted by Cat (not verified) on Mon, 2011-01-24 22:09.Most women aren't looking for a "nice guy" because it doesn't mean anything, it's way too generic a descriptor. I look for good conversationalists and science fiction geeks and cooks and artists and people who like the things I like, people that I find interesting and who respect both me and themselves.
I guess what I'm saying is that people with something to contribute to a relationship don't describe themselves only as "nice" and probably won't be described as such by their friends, lovers or acquainces. Probably as close as they'll get is "generous" (also generic, but as least it describes an actual quality).