attraction

While Driving: Sexual Arousal Vs. Erotic Arousal

Tue, 2011-11-29 13:02

Ever notice there's a huge difference? A big one!

(I pulled over to type this. Maybe more later.)

On Differences Between Appreciation of Beauty and Gendered Expectations of Appreciation of Beauty

Mon, 2011-11-21 01:15

KinkInExile has this to say about beauty. It's not clear that she's talking about gendered beauty but it's clear she's talking about her beauty.

For all the time and money I spend on beauty, fashion and the like, this morning caught me by surprise.  This morning, for reasons that are far too convoluted to go into right now, I ended up breaking down tents, dragging around easy ups, packing trucks, loading and unloading food, and generally scrambling to pull things out of the Occupy Oakland encampment ahead of an advancing police line in the mud while also smiling at and trying to be friendly and engaging toward the police.  After what felt like a sprint of activity both in its intensity and its briefness, as I disrobed next to the washing machine in my apartment and stood in a hallway, sweaty, sore, and naked except for the bandana I had used to tie my unwashed hair out of my face, I realized I hadn’t felt that beautiful in ages.

Source: Kink In Exile

I raise that mostly to contrast with an anonymous correspondent to Em & Lo implicitly offered a substantially gendered view of beauty in general and hers in particular.

Why do guys cheat down? Meaning, picking a woman less attractive. My husband cheated on me with a woman twice my size. He said he found her unattractive but couldn’t help himself. Another friend of mine (she is a model) had her husband cheat on her. It was while he was out of town and all the women were less attractive. Of course these are just two examples. I was always under the impression that if you are going to cheat, at least make it worth it.

She said it here.

So the first question should always be who's idea of beauty are we talking about? Society's? The correspondents? Her partners? My guess is that there's a difference in her experience of society's philosophy of men's relationship beauty and her partner's actual experience of it. (Which is in collision with his experience of society's expectation of him.)

Second question: What makes so many people think that conventional/consensus beauty is the only reliable metric for male attraction? Especially when it so often isn't a very good metric?

Third question: What makes her think beauty for men is an apex rather than a threshold, such that no matter how beautiful one woman is men will inevitably prefer someone even more beautiful?

Fourth question: When woman A is less beautiful but still preferred to woman B, why is the assumption that woman A must "give better head?")

Fifth question: Where do so many people get the idea that beauty is like some kind of points system such that if you’ve got more you automatically win? Or else that it’s an entitlement such that if you’ve got more you should automatically win?

Next question: Would the correspondent feel somehow better if he instead cheated “up?” (If so… if one really would feel better… then stop right there and think about that! Because really?)

Final question: I’m… pretty sure the correspondent would feel insulted if someone suggested that she, like "all women," was attracted to men based only on the gendered masculine quality of income or worth. So why think that men, including her partner, are attracted only on the gendered feminine quality of “beauty?”

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As long as we're on the subject of gendered notions of attraction, try running the numbers again for men, substituting worthiness for beauty. For question four, replace "must give good head" with "must have a big dick."

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A lot of years ago a now-dark blogger named Sam Sugar, trying to make a claim about men's nature, said something like "given two women with similarly attractive personalities men will choose the more beautiful one every time." It's actually even true... but not particularly telling. First because what at least ought to be an obvious corollary: "given two women with similar beauty, men will choose the one with the more attractive personality. Second the same true but empty observation could be made about women's attraction to men.

I think the fallacy, which Sam Sugar was perpetuating and which I think a lot of people fall for, is the idea that men simply aren't aware of any qualities other than beauty in women such that they express deep surprise when men actually do enjoy and often prefer other qualities more.

Similarly, of course, it seems to perpetually surprise people when women fail to ignore beauty in men.

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If you look at beauty in KinkInExile's terms I think it's a lot harder to have disconnects between social expectations and our actual experiences.

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Disclaimer: I know I sound like I'm all about heteronormativity all the time. Instead just think there's a lot more unconscious assumptions to question about heteronormativity, and that it takes a lot more effort to become conscious of them.

Speaking of Musical Lyrics, A Question for Em & Lo Makes Me Wonder if "Why Can't a Woman Be More Like A Man?" Isn't Already True

Tue, 2011-02-22 18:33

"Unwilling Goddess" wrote Em & Lo asking for advice on the following problem.

Dear Em & Lo,

How does one gracefully say “Thanks, but no thanks”? It seems to happen a lot to me: I treat the guy like a friend — meaning I don’t make innuendo (no puns please!) nor banter, etc., I just converse fercrissake! — and a few weeks (or months, or hours) later he’s dropping heavy hints and gazing at me with That Look. I then try to avoid any situations that may lead him on; i.e. refusing a drink together, though I wouldn’t mind having a friendly one. Also, I don’t want to lose friends who suddenly want to move it a notch further than I really want. Any ways to let them down gently?

– Unwilling Goddess

Source:

I don't really have a lot of advice for dealing with this. But I can look at the question from a couple of different perspectives.

It sounds as if the correspondent would find it more convenient if men didn’t grow more romantically attracted to women as they get to know them better, spend more time around them, and just generally appreciate all their qualities, and not just be turned on by the superficialities of their faces, hair, or booties. In actuality, though, a lot of men have exactly those romantic qualities that are more often attributed to stereotypes of women.

And looking at the question from yet another angle, surely the correspondent isn’t suggesting that women base their attractions to partners on initial hormonal response and thus never become more attracted to them as they got to know them better. If so then that would suggest that women have qualities that are more often attributed to stereotypes of men.

My intuition has always been that the following lyrics could be sung as easily by women as by the men (Rogers and Hammerstien*) who wrote them for the Anna character in The King and I:

Getting to know you,
Getting to feel free and easy
When I am with you,
Getting to know what to say

Haven’t you noticed
Suddenly I’m bright and breezy?
Because of all the beautiful and new
Things I’m learning about you
Day by day.

Actually my intuition says that’s still true. Chime in if I’m wrong, though.

* Not actually being a huge fan of musicals I wasn't aware until I Googled it that the song was from The King and I or that it was sung by women and not as a duet between a man and woman. (I'd guessed it was instead from West Side Story.)

Phrases I Rarely Imagine Typing: Sound Dating Advice From Alex Tabarrok May Help Explain Pick-Up Artist Successes

Wed, 2011-01-12 15:51

So the other day most recent OKTrends, which routinely analyzes OKCupid's dating-site user statistics, came up with the paradoxical finding that, at least for women who are contacted by men, it seems that women who are rated beautiful by some men and unattractive to others are contacted more often than women who are uniformly rated beautiful. Or universally rated cute.

Economist Alex Tabarrok closed his analysis of the analysis with an uncharacteristically acute observation about rules of attraction.

In the marriage market what you want is not so much to increase your attractiveness to the average person but rather to the one person who will  cherish your unique features. Thus--conditional on attracting a decent number of suitors from a reasonable pool etc.--what you want to do is accentuate your unique features even if doing so reduces your average ranking. In short, heteroscedasticity makes you hot.

Source: Marginal Revolution

I think that's a wonderful insight. I also think it may illuminate the one genuinely positive benefit of so-called "pickup artist" techniques: inducing yourself to make contact with more people than you might naturally be inclined to do. Because I think that more than any specific "technique" is the actual "trick." (To the extent they don't actively antagonize women, e.g. "make the ho say no," PUA "tricks" may be useful for conversation starting. But I'm almost certain that graduates of, for instance, Dale Carnegie courses are going to be more universally successful.)

Update: Incidentally, when I mentioned Dale Carnegie a minute ago I wasn't damning with faint praise. It's an awesome course not only for public speaking or self-esteem but for developing genuine, generous interest in other people -- the key, incidentally but non-trivially, to its promise to help you "win friends and influence people." It's pretty good stuff.

The Beauty Trap: Fitness Vs. Fashion and Who Sets Standards of Beauty and Who's It All Supposed to Be For Anyway?

Tue, 2010-01-26 23:34

Ok, so I feel really uncomfortable going here because it takes me back to when I was, like, a horny 17-year-old boy… and because it’s about fashion, which is always sort of a loaded issue but…

In a very cool post on body/mass indexes, working out vs. dieting, and standards of attraction Amanda Marcotte over at Pandagon said

“...a lot of women polled still found women like Alba attractive, but 41% said that muscles are never attractive on women. 72% said they don’t think men find muscles on women attractive, and 77% said that they don’t think women find them attractive.”

Read the rest of her excellent post here.

S’cuse me but… this is going to sound like male privilege out the wazoo or something (I promise it’s not) but… but… who gives a crap what women think other women should look like?!?

I ask because it’s certainly the case that women appear to care hugely more about how other women look than men do. And also appear to care hugely more about how other women think they look than how men think they look.

If I was an MRA or something I’d snuffle about how it’s so unfair that Teh Feminists blame men for forcing women into unhealthy diets, uncomfortable shoes, entire toxic waste dumps full of cosmetics and hair products and (worst of all in my opinion anyway) clothes without pockets that… cost two to five times as much to purchase as men’s and two to ten times as much to (dry!) clean. When, as this survey shows, women are full of the harsh towards other women.

Of course I’m not an MRA so I’ll go with stuff Hegel, or Naomi Wolfe, or Susie Orbach and say something about the feminine beauty trap which, like the corresponding masculine worthiness trap is a product of our self-criticism and self-policing in the face of our gendered expectations. And that is sure seems like there’s sort of the opposite of that stupid joke about bears and running shoes where we tell ourselves if we’re going to get the man/woman/whatever of our dreams we can’t just meet the typical non-gendered threshhold of attractiveness to the opposite gender and instead perceive that we have to beat everyone else who might also be interested in them. With the result that we’re more acutely attuned to the nuances of… whatever gender trap is assigned to us than members of the opposite sex are ever likely to be…

...with the result that, ironically, we’re likely to be more judgmental of, and have higher standards for, ourselves and our peers than the prospective partners we’re allegedly competing for. Which is why I think it’s an escalating trap. To the point that, say, women can wind up saying things like “don’t kiss me I just did my hair” and men say things like “I can’t come home now, I’m not earning enough to keep you happy” that are objectively dumb but subjectively make perfect sense to them.

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But what I really wanted to say was I think it’s weird that the report would gather statistics on whether other women think buff women are unattractive. Which goes back, I think, to me being gender, and probably cis- and all kinds of other privileged after all. Because when I hear “women are” attractive/unattractive/whatever I automatically append “to men.” As if that was the only criteria that matters. And I’m not sure it’s a good excuse that that really is supposed to be what the whole attractiveness industry is predicated on.

And now after saying that I’m going to add that I think 77% of women are out of their minds if they don’t think men think muscles on women are attractive. It’s as dumb as saying 77% of men think women aren’t interested in men who don’t have… I dunno… high-paying jobs or something. Because I’m pretty sure a heck of a lot fewer than 77% of men think buff women are unattractive. I mean, seriously, I don’t get it.

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One more thing: in comment #29 to Amanda’s post La Lubu said: “Women’s clothing—-outside of workout clothes—-doesn’t come in an ‘athletic’ cut the way men’s clothing does.” That part certainly is true. In the past I spent a lot of time doing pool aerobics with athletes recovering from knee, foot, and leg injuries and it’s certainly true that contemporary women’s clothes, ironically, don’t seem to “flatter” fit women’s bodies as well as they do women who aren’t as fit. Except, I guess, in the pool or at the beach.

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Things like this make you wonder who invented heterosexuality anyway? I mean, I like being heterosexual and all but wow, for something that’s supposed to be “how nature made us” we end up doing a lot of embarrassing things to ourselves and each other.

What We "Know" About Gender Stereotypes Can Change Depending on Who We Ask

Mon, 2009-11-23 20:00

Summary: The title says it all.

The question for the Wise Guys feature this week at Em & Lo seems like a pretty straightforward gender-cliché-confirming opportunity to, well, confirm a cliché!

Does every guy see a woman and immediately assess whether or not he’d want to have sex with her?

See the rest of the question, answers, and reader comments here.

And sure enough, the two straight guys (one married, one single) confirm the stereotype: yes, they assess whether or not they’d like to have sex with her.

Then more generously but perhaps nearly as male-cliché, the gay single guy said “Every human creature that falls within your sexuality spectrum is instantly sized up as a potential slap-and-tickle.”

Where it gets fun, though, is in the comments:

  • Chelsea B Says: I feel the same way as a woman though. Almost every time I see a remotely attractive man, I asses his “bangability.” I am in a long term relationship as well. I feel like it is in human nature, not just men. Maybe I’m completely wrong, but I don;t think so
  • Elea Says: Same here! Human nature.
  • Jen Says: I guess my only difference is I almost never would want to do them :p Not that I don’t question it. And I have to ‘like’ a specific guy (or say, be dating him) to want to add him to the, er, show.
  • Dannie Says: Totally human nature. I think the range may vary from time to time–obviously, people with asexuality probably wouldn’t have this thought process as often, but anyone with any interest with sex most certainly will have sexual thoughts on their gender of attraction. Sometimes, though, it’s not even about the sexual fantasy; it’s just…people using their imaginations in the way that sexual creatures do.
  • Michael Says: For me, the woman doesn’t really have to be attractive–it’s just about curiosity. I’ll be watching the news, and the anchorwoman is perhaps just somewhat attractive, and I’ll think, “I wonder what she looks like having an orgasm.”
  • Rei Says: Women totally have these same fantasies as well as men!!! Any attractive man I see I wonder how big he is between his legs, and how he’d make love/sex. I’m married to a great man, but as humans, everyone has fantasies, and fantasize about someone not their sig other. It happens. But, you shouldn’t always think about the bus boy/or waitress, every time your man/woman is pleasuring you!
  • Emi_ Says: I never used to because I thought it was wrong to think about another guy while in a relationship. But luckily I don’t guilt myself over it anymore. And although sometimes I do think about cute guys other than my boyfriend, I wouldn’t actually do anything.
  • Madamoiselle L Says: The Wise Guys actually made me laugh out loud. “A walk in part in some fantasy.” “Jessica Rabbit.” “We’d never leave the house.”
    I remember in college playing “Would you fuck that guy?” (Quietly!) while sitting on the Quad with other women or gay friends (never played it with straight guys, though, you KNOW they’d ask.. ...Hell, the gay guys would ask, “Say I was straight, or really really drunk, would you….) The answered about the men walking by ranged from “Ew!” to “Hell yeah!” to “Maybe I could, if he was nice.” “Maybe I could, if he lost that perm.” (Some of the girls needed some Trust Fund or other financial incentive included, not kidding.) We were young, dumb and full of…...energy then.
    My Man does this, during movies or TV shows (he does it during the news” “What about him? Is he hot? If I were a chick, I’d think he was hot.” (He doesn’t get my obsession with House…..my Man looks just like him.) However, I DON’T ask him. But, he tells me anyway. :) Not bragging, but the closer a woman’s look is to mine, the more likely he is to want her, no matter what her age. (although tall blondes, which I am surely not, wouldn’t be said “no” to in this game…) I’m more picky than he is, that’s for sure.
    In nature,(animals) the female usually does the choosing, while the male takes whatever comes along and is reasonably healthy looking. Makes sense.

Yeah, yeah, the answers in comments have too much sample-selection bias, self-selection bias, and all that to have much statistical relevance. But anecdotally it’s very nice confirmation of, well, confirmation bias: if you only asked men you’d confirm a cliché about men. If you ask everybody though… and you learn something much more interesting.

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Speaking for myself I don’t know if it’s because I’m older, or that I’ve grown more confident, or that I no longer believe in heterosexual sexual scarcity and the whole rest of the no-sex class indoctrination men give themselves, but I can’t say I immediately assess someone for sexual compatibility. Eventually, maybe, and probably sooner than I start guessing about, say, their computer savvy. But probably after I assess them for, say, political/philosophical compatibility. Which, now that I think about it, is sort of the same thing.

Why It's Probably Better To Ask Women What Women Want Than Try to Guess

Tue, 2009-08-11 12:50

Lynn Gassiz-Sax of Noli Irritare Leones has the definitive takedown of the “women want bad boys” conceit.

If we women really crave, above all else, guys who are nothing but trouble for us, shouldn’t John Hinckley have totally nailed Jodie Foster? Aren’t scary violent guys with guns exactly the kind of jerks that, according to the Nice Guy™ narrative, we should be falling over ourselves to sleep with? Or could it, just possible, be that the reason lonely murderers weren’t getting laid to begin with was that they already had that violent streak in them, and when women met them, they encountered things that made the hair on the back of their neck stand on end.

She said it here.

And while a seeming counterfactual would be the numerous fan mail, including marriage offers, tendered to Ted Bundy after he confessed to being a serial killer, the fact that his admirers numbered at best in the low hundreds in a nation of hundreds of millions says only that for every Whacko Jacko there’s a Whacko Jill.

Lynn continues (emphasis mine)

In fact, though we’ve all had the experience of rejecting guys who were genuinely nice enough, but not for us (the guy, say, who totally disagrees with you about whether he wants kids, or who’s the most amiable fundie you could ever meet, but you’re Unitarian, or who otherwise just isn’t on the same page as you regarding something on which you really need to be on the same page), we’ve also all rejected guys who made the hair on the back of our neck stand on end. The guy who carries a knife, and one of his first questions is whether you’re connected with any guy bigger than him, who could beat him up. The drunk who volunteers, right off the bat, that he’s going to beat up any guy who pays you any attention. The guy who tells you a long story about how God sent messages to him in traffic lights to go and find his ex-girl friend, and then says, by the way, you look a lot like her, and you look rather romantic, right now, against that post. Oh, we may sometimes fall for the smooth talking guy with great pecs who will cheat on us in the end (just as men fall for the female equivalent), but we also have a basic sense of self-preservation that, when we listen to our gut, leads us to avoid the most scary dangerous men who want to go to bed with us.

That line about bigger boyfriends who could beat him up is classic by the way. And classic projection too. I’m not sure you could completely parse the notion in a thousand pages but some of the high points include:

  • Internalizing the worthiness trap that says men must be “higher status” to “earn” or deserve “higher status” women. (When, in fact, women, being human beings just like everyone else, tend not to imagine themselves as prizes granted.)
  • Tacitly acknowledging their acceptance of a particularly primitive patriarchal system wherein female partners are effectively spoils of war instead of, well, partners.
  • Weirdest of all, an abiding insecure certainty that their place in the system is uncertain and, especially, that they’re unlikely to succeed in it. (This is similar to the assumption I think drives a lot of men’s preference for virginity or inexperience which is that they won’t compare favorably to any of the woman’s previous partners.)

But the big thing that’s implied is that the NiceGuy™ strategy is really a secondary strategy in an “alpha male” paradigm… that if the NiceGuy™ was only bigger, only able to beat up other men, and maybe better with a knife (a knife?!?!) then instead of all the smarmy “Pickup Artist” tactics he could just grab you by the hair and drag you out and nobody better try and stop him.

There’s also the… interesting assumption that all women want big, rich, violent partners. There’s also the assumption that all women’s attraction is transactional — that if you don’t “lock her in” some how she’ll kite off with anyone bigger, richer and/or more violent than her current partner.

There’s also the equally interesting tangle of assumptions that — assuming women are autonomous anyway — their attractiveness quotient is linked to their attraction to big, rich, and violent men such that the more beautiful the woman the bigger, richer, and more violent her partner is likely to be. Or, assuming women aren’t autonomous, that the more physically attractive they are they’ll automatically fall prey to end up in relationships with those selfsame bigger, richer, or more violent men.

What’s most disturbing, of course, is that none of this seems to be particularly true about women. Yes, some women sent Ted Bundy love letters just like some men are Ted Bundys or John Hinkley Juniors. But just as it would be… rash to assume all men are or want to be closet Ted Bundys or John Hinkley Juniors, so it would be rash to assume all women have or would like to send them love letters.

The Evolution of Beauty vs. Handsomeness: It *Must* Be True or Researchers Wouldn't Say It

Sat, 2009-08-01 11:24

Jonathan Leake, Science Editor of Rupert Murdoch’s Times Online begins a much discussed research from the University of Helsinki this way

FOR the female half of the population, it may bring a satisfied smile. Scientists have found that evolution is driving women to become ever more beautiful, while men remain as aesthetically unappealing as their caveman ancestors.

Read the quote in context here.

That would be a no then. If it were the case that selective pressure is driving the “evolution” of good lookin’ women it would necessarily imply that, rather “bring a satisfied smile,” women would experience selective pressure, a.k.a. stress, to be attractive. Which would make it anything but a laughing matter. If true.

Also, about men being as aesthetically unappealing as our caveman ancestors: that would imply that whenever she had a choice between two potential partners are identical in every other way their looks still won’t factor into that choice.

The article also quotes the researchers as saying

Historically this has meant rich men tend to have more wives and many children. So the pressure is on men to be successful.

To which I can only say Desmond Hatchett, a seemingly handsome minimum-wage-earning 29-year-old from my home town who’s had 21 children with eleven partners.

Stumbled Upon: An April Post About Men and Physical Desirability

Tue, 2009-07-28 23:40

A post from last April about Unforseen Consequences of Men Believing Themselves Unseen has been picked up on by the social-referral site StumbleUpon.com. I’m glad it’s been picked up — I think it’s a good piece about an important topic. I have no idea, however, who originally, um, stumbled upon the post and linked it, nor how to find that original link so I could thank or otherwise credit them.

At any rate thanks. Welcome. While you’re hear you might also want to check out

Rebecca Woolf on Attraction, Jealousy and Guilt

Sat, 2009-07-11 06:57

Rebecca Woolf of Girl’s Gone Child says

I never got around to posting the following Momversation _[article that sparked this episode perpetuates paranoia, guilt and “omg I touched my friend’s knee and he was a dude and I’m a chick and it totally turned me on I SHOULD CONFESS TO MY HUSBAND because I’m an awful CHEATING CHEATER!”

...

I personally stand by the following when it comes to marriage and monogamy be it physical, emotional et al: Animals stray because they feel caged. People cheat because they feel trapped. There is nothing more attractive to a caged bird* than an open sky. Remove the cage? There’s no need to fly away. (*Please pardon the cliché)

She said it here.

Yup. I’m pretty sure of two things. First, that the rate of extra-relationship activity in “open” relationships isn’t significantly higher than in “closed” ones. (Or, to put emphasis where it belongs, the rate of extramaritality doesn’t appear to be any lower in closed relationships.) Second, though, is that I’m pretty sure most affairs aren’t the direct cause of most relationship breakups, I’m also pretty sure that obsessiveness derived of guilt, jealousy, and/or anxiety can lead to the alienation that does cause a lot of breakups. (For instance both guilt and suspicion lead to possibly unnecessary distancing.)

Which leads to another apt clichés “don’t let yourself drown in knee-deep water” There’s a strong tendency to panic about what you think you’re most supposed to worry about, with the result that the panic about a situation does more damage than the actual situation would have.

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