breast size

Blast From the Past: A Post About the Search for Matching Bras and Panties for Small-Busted Adult Women

Sun, 2010-09-19 09:56

A few years ago I remember reading that the average dress size for American woman is now 12 or 14 (can't remember) and the average bra size is now D.

It's rather well-established that the fashion industry very shabbily serves the fashion interests of average size, let alone above-average sizes. It's less well-established that the industry also shabbily serves adult women who are undersized.

Back when my blog was more about the ins and outs of sex than the cultural influences and consequences of it I was online friends with a number of women bloggers who were highly fashion-conscious but very small breasted. Small-breasted in the specific sense that the "foundation garment" industry didn't produce bras, slips, camisoles, or lingerie in general that simultaneously a) looked sexy but also b) fit them.

While surfing to see who was referring to my site this morning I ran across vintage erotica collector Silent Porn Star. I'd lost track of her years ago but as of March 2010 she seems to be back.) Anyway, while catching up with posts (she's interested in everything from naughty embroidery to cheesie "nudist camp" jigsaw puzzles to scholarly analysisPaul Klee and sexual fluidity) I noticed she kept referencing the author of the vintage lingerie blog Slip of a Girl.

And to get back to the original point of this post, I ran across Slip of a Girl's post Smaller Busted Or Know Someone Who Is? An Exclusive Interview With Lula Lu Petite Lingerie Designer Ellen Shing! Shing owns what Slip of a Girl says is the only retail shop in the U.S. and Canada that caters to small-busted women of all heights and sizes.

[SoaG] As a larger busted woman, and indeed a larger woman in general (actually, I am average size, but you know how fashion goes!), I've often been frustrated with way sizes are created. If I'm unhappy with the poor fit of the ill-conceived "just add a few inches all over," I imagine the problems are similar with "just shrink it all over." How does Lula Lu actually address the proper lingerie sizing for petite women?

[Shing] We don't start with a 34B, like many bra companies do for the fit of our bras as it makes no sense as we haven't even really added B cups to our collection! We start with AA cups and work our way up a little to an A cup and down a little to a AAA cup to keep things accurate. We keep the range of our sizes focused and test the size samples on actual women of each size to make sure they fit well. Having said that, no bra can ever fit everyone perfectly in a particular size because everyone's built differently and thus the bras will wear differently on women's bodies (and you also have to account for everyone's different tastes on how they would like to appear in a bra).<

...

[SoaG] Do you feel that the American obsession with big breasts (and implants) have negatively impacted not only the smaller-busted, perhaps, with self-esteem issues, but lingerie companies and retailers too — resulting in offering less options for those women with petite bustlines?

[Shing] Most of my customers are happy with their body type and bust size and they just feel defeated by the actual bra shopping experience when they realize that they cannot find anything that fits them or are told to go to the children's department. I think the biggest misconception about women with small busts is that the all want to appear like they have a big bust. It's not true and a lot of my customers like their shape and just want some bras that fit well. Read the whole interview here.

A lot of my old blogging friends have moved on, their sites are now dark, and I don't know how many of them still read me. And if they do I'm sure they'll be tickled that I'd stick with the issues of sizing lingerie instead of, oh, maybe what Shing's products actually look like and whether I think they're sexy (they look nice, I think they're sexy.)

Not everyone cares about fashion, but some people do. And like most people in general, most of those who do care about fashion don't have the standard 34B body industry seems to insist on designing for. There's been more activism lately to get industry to begin accommodating actual average bodies. But it's nice that someone's taking the interests of "minus" sized women, most of whom also aren't model shaped seriously.

Russ Meyer Would Be Thrilled: My Attempt to Debunk Australian Censorship of Small-BreasAdult Women Fails

Thu, 2010-01-28 22:45


Photo by Flickr user Wombatunderground1. Used under a Creative Commons license.

Feminist* author Courtney Martin, widely respected-by-feminists* blogger at premier feminist* website Feministing* quotes Australian feminist* porn-for-women blogger Ms. Naughty by way of decrying…

...censorship prompted by decidedly non-feminist Australian Senators Barnaby Joyce and Guy Barnett. The censorship in question? Small breasts, which at least in Joyce and Barnett’s understanding of anatomy, are found only on underage girls.

Quoth Martin…

So many jokes come to mind here, but I’m going to leave the analysis to Ms. Naughty on Australia’s weird ban:

Why ban small boobs? I can only assume it stems from paranoia that flat chests somehow stir up the pedophiles. And you only need to mention that “p” word to start a full-scale moral panic in Parliament.

Shall we put such hysteria aside and look at what this ruling is saying to Australian women? Basically, it’s classing a certain normal female body type as obscene. It’s declaring all flat chests to be automatically juvenile, something that should not be viewed by anyone because of a fear that it will stir up “base instincts” in certain people.

“Can the Classification Board be any more insulting or sexist?”

Read the quote in context here.

For what it’s worth Barnett and Guy have also pressed the board to outright ban all depictions of female ejaculations and, even weirder, they’re evidently working to restrict photos where inner (but not outer!) labia are visible.

So far anyway the comments at Feministing have been pretty positive in the sense that even those who aren’t totally thrilled by porn still think impositions like this are going too far.

In fact, pretty much around the world people of all stripes are taking a… pretty dim view of the board’s actions.

So I’m going to be contrary and try to give the stupid morons the benefit of the doubt.

Opposition to the small-breasts ruling have been pretty hyperbolic and the analysis has sounded a bit slippery-slope-y so I thought I’d look around and see if I could find the real scoop.

Turns out there’s not a lot. In fact the only credible source of a pro-small-breasts-ban line of reasoning comes from the the Australian anti-censorship site that seems to have broken the original story, SomebodyThingOfTheChildren.com.

According to them the Australian Classification Board says their intention is to ban only images of underage models. Well, and images of small-breasted of-age adults if they might be mistaken for underage models.

In other words even though there’s surprising unanimity in choosing to illustrate articles with photos of actress Keira Knightley, it’s at least somewhat likely magazines and videos depicting her wouldn’t be covered by the ban because she’s known to be an adult.

On the other hand, publications the board evidently has completely banned include 18 U.S. C. 2257-compliant U.S. magazines with titles like Barely Legal, Finally Legal and Purely 18. In other words publications that expressly intend their models to be perceived as of-age adults… and who, since the publications are under perpetual threat of F.B.I. investigation, are verified to be actually of-age adults.

Which means that, yup, even if accusatory articles are hyperbolic the underlying story appears to be accurate: in Australia pornographers are now officially required to discriminate against women with small breasts.

Senators Barnaby Joyce and Guy Barnett, and no-doubt Russ Meyer approve.

\* I’ve been debating a bunch of anti-feminists who claim all feminists are man-hating, hairy-legged, lesbian-separatist, female-supremacist sex haters lately and, at least according to them this post, nor Courtney’s, nor Ms. Naughties can exist, let alone say anything that isn’t straight-up conservative about erotic images of adult men and women. So I thought I’d emphasis the point. Not that it would matter — they’re inclined to see feminism as an evil monolith than Mary Daly was inclined to see men, period, at all. So I thought I’d rub it in.

Itty-Bitty Plot Summary

Wed, 2008-12-17 16:00

Yet another non-cliché mention of breasts I’ve noticed this week. Jessica of Feministing says

I was sick in bed yesterday (actually, still am) so I thought it would be a good opportunity to catch up on some movies I’ve been meaning to watch: Itty Bitty Titty Committee was one of them.

It was awesome, super fun and interesting. And I have to say, I was really pleased to see it not too far down iTunes “top rented” lists. Nice. C(I)A rules.

Read the quote in context here.

I don’t think I’m giving anything away by saying the movie is about Anna, a young, still-sort-of-coming-out lesbian who meets a group of activist lesbians. The activists work to reclaim space for acceptance and self-acceptance of women by, among other things, spraying graffiti on the walls of… the plastic-surgery clinic in which Anna works where… breast implants are a fairly important part of the business.

Finding the Right Fit

Tue, 2008-12-16 19:18

I mentioned earlier that I’ve noticed more posts about breasts than usual this week. Here’s another good one. F.F. of Feminist Finance, in a continuing series called “How to Care For Your Clothes” says

I will break the ice by telling you a somewhat embarrassing story about myself. Hi, my name is feminist finance, and I wore the wrong size bra for about 15 years. I bought bras based on the size I thought I probably ought to be. My breasts weren’t small, but I didn’t think they were especially big, either. I am not quite sure who or what I was comparing myself to, but I have a sneaking suspicion it was, oh, boob-fetishizing culture at large. So, not so big and not so small: a B-cup sounded about right based on that description. So that’s what I wore from the start of high school until the very recent past.

Ding, ding, ding, guesswork and habit is the wrong way to buy a bra. My idea of what I looked like, and consequently what size bra I should be wearing, didn’t match reality. ... But dysmorphic thinking can take a lot of different, less extreme forms, and the form it took for me was thinking that because I didn’t look like a Hooter’s poster girl that I could not possibly be larger than a B-cup. That is also the form it apparently takes for a lot of the women who appear on Tim Gunn’s Guide to Style (I’m such a sucker for Tim Gunn ), who says that in all the episodes of filming that show, he has never worked with a woman who was wearing a correctly sized bra. It’s not necessarily about body hate or even mild body dislike, but it is always about unreality.

... It wasn’t enough of a prompt that I always had to wear a sweater over my button-down shirts because they would gap and pucker across my chest. I thought that was just an occupational hazard of buying cheaply made stuff. It wasn’t enough that I could sometimes see the outline of my bra through my sweaters where my breasts were spilling out over the top of the cup. I thought maybe my sweaters had shrunk. ...I decided that just for shits and giggles I would swing by my friendly neighborhood department store lingerie department. It was there that I learned that I have probably not been a B-cup since early in puberty. Me and my properly supported 34-D’s can now quite happily wear the exact same button-down shirts that used to make me swear and foam at the mouth.

She said it here.

I strongly endorse f.f.‘s recommendation that women get fitted by someone who’s trained to do it, even though I don’t have breasts, because just before I moved to the northwest young I worked briefly with a young woman from a fairly rural area who’s starchily conservative, religious mom happened to sell foundation garments out of her home. And while she very strictly managed her daughter’s relationships (“so… exactly what are your intentions with my daughter?” “Um, I’m mostly giving her rides to work since she doesn’t drive”) she was absolutely relaxed and almost, well, evangelical about breast care. And so on the few times I had to wait for my coworker to get ready I got a living earful of not-immediately-applicable information about the importance of breast examinations, the merits and demerits of underwires, the proper adjustments of straps, changes in breast size over the course of menstrual cycles, and quite a bit about the arcane system whereby bra size is determined. And, as f.f. discovered, just how much a correctly or incorrectly sized bra affects the fit of one’s clothes.

The main upshot though being, yeah, especially considering how expensive they are and how much they affect comfort, fit, and even health, it’s really a good idea to get properly fitted before you buy bras.

Update: Doh! I should have added “...if you intend to buy or wear them.” Which not everybody does or should or needs to or wants to, and which some people say one ought not to.

Form, Formula, Foundation Wear... and Fallacies

Tue, 2008-12-16 12:46


Photo by Flickr user zmxncbv.com. Used under a Creative Commons license.

Last week it seemed like more people than usual were (coincidentally) talking about vasectomies. This week I’ve noticed more than the usual number of posts about breasts. As a result I’ve got a couple of things I want to say about breasts as well. Here’s a good place to start. Dr Petra Boynton, tipping her hat to a post by Bad Science’s Ben Goldacre

As you may know, one thing that winds me up nearly as much as dodgy surveys for PR purposes it’s using fake formulae to promote products. The formulae I’ve taken most issue with have been those supposedly identifying ‘perfect’ breast and sizes or what the ideal Page 3 girl’s vital statistics should be, although there have been formula created for just about any purpose you can imagine – anything from the perfect consistency of a biscuit through to which day of the year is the most depressing.

None of the formulae ever really make any mathematical sense, but then they’re not supposed to. They are designed simply to get a product mentioned in the papers. And that message is always emphasised by the appearance of a ‘scientist’, ‘psychologist’, or ‘boffin’ (often from Cambridge University) who will give weight to the maths. They can get pretty shirty if you tell them their formulae don’t make any sense – or have been written for them by a PR company. But despite invitations from the media and other scientists to defend their work none have so far accepted challenges to the accuracy of their formula. Instead they make the claim that they are leading the way in science communication or are using these PR opportunities to raise our interest in psychology, science, or mathematics.

Read the rest of her post, and follow the links I haven’t included, here.

We’ve heard discussion of beauty ideals for thousands of years — of proportions and ratios, of ideal weights, of complexions, of hairstyles, of curves or lack thereof, and of course of ideal behaviors. (There’s been… considerable differences of opinion, varying wildly not just from country to country or century to century but sometimes from one decade to the next.)

Oddly, according to a credibly-researched presentation I heard last winter on the history of the brassier from a fellow student in the sex ed, women’s studies, and communications course I was in, there was almost no discussion of the ideal breast size until garment manufacturers settled on a standard for bra sizes right around the middle of the 20th Century.

Sure, bras had been around for a few decades (and obviously, before bras there had been corsets that did similar duty.) But standardized bras had something the earlier bras and corsets hadn’t: cup sizes.

Industrial society, with it’s recent appreciation for economies of scale, already had a bigger-is-better attitude about a lot of things, but at least in terms of breasts there hadn’t been much discussion in the early 1900s about whether, say, Mae West’s ample bosom was superior to Mary Pickford’s slight one.

But suddenly there was a single measurement. And suddenly there was the opportunity for comparison. And suddenly there could be competition. And suddenly there could be (by-definition post hoc and easy to mock) “formulas for perfect breasts.”

Hooters, peepers, and evolution

Mon, 2007-07-16 10:16

Sam Sugar of SugarBank is as puzzled as I am why so many men are drawn to women with larger breasts.

Until very recently, it was a mystery to evolutionary psychology why men prefer women with large breasts, since the size of a woman’s breasts has no relationship to her ability to lactate. But Harvard anthropologist Frank Marlowe contends that larger, and hence heavier, breasts sag more conspicuously with age than do smaller breasts. Thus they make it easier for men to judge a woman’s age (and her reproductive value) by sight—suggesting why men find women with large breasts more attractive.

Stephen J. Dubner is calling BS and says:

I would think that, even during the Stone Age, if a man had to resort to judging a woman’s age by the relative sag of her breasts instead of a number of other signifiers, he probably wasn’t the kind of fellow who was going to successfully reproduce anyway.

...

Besides if breasts are a clue to age and men are more attracted to more fertile (i.e. younger) women, the ideal breasts would be small and pert which indicate sexual maturity and youth simultaneously. The research says most men go for bigger though.

Read the quote in context here

I know evolutionary psychology (which in practice seems to be unto Sociobiology as Intelligent Design is unto Creationism) is a personal bugaboo of mine but stuff like requiring sexual/reproductive reasons for preferring one type of breast over another. It’s especially galling because, as Steven Dubner points out, most of the proposed solutions require humans in general and men in particular to be really, really, really stupid. And I mean stupid stupid, not just frat-boy-on-a-bender stupid or even contestant-on-The-Darwin-Awards stupid.

And don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying there are no, none, nada, nix, zilch naturally selected behaviors at work between men and women. I’m just saying they have to meet a degree of sophistication at least equivalent to the greater and lesser primates to whom we’re taxonomically related. And as far as I know not even proto-primates like the tarsiers [See photo at right —fl] are that poorly socially organized that something like slightly bigger boobs would be a sufficiently critical discriminant in mate selection for selective pressure to overcome what even to this day is proportionately extreme variability.

Actually I’m more puzzled about why people keep telling each other we prefer bigger breasts when there’s so little actual evidence. For instance the previous links are taken from high in Ask-Men’s top-99 “most desirable women” list — yet all are quite a bit smaller-breasted than many of the women who appeared lower in the list.)

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