conventional attractiveness

Whether They're Kardashians or Cardassians, Let’s Stop Claiming that People We’re not Attracted to Are “Disgusting”

Photo by Flickr user Brian Wilkins. Cached as a bandwidth-conserving courtesy

Via Brute Reason, here's a great post about not bashing those you're merely not attracted to from The Polyamorous Misanthrope

[L]et’s stop claiming that people we’re not attracted to are “disgusting”:

Can we all, please, stop using terms of disgust for people to whom we are not sexually attracted?

[...]Let’s say that, oh, people with brown hair aren’t attractive to you. It does not make people who have brown hair offensive or disgusting. It just means that they have brown hair and that isn’t your thing. It’s okay that it’s not your thing.

It’s not okay to get indignant because someone has the temerity not to be attractive to you.

Like curvy chicks? That’s cool. It’s not cool to snark the skinny ones just because that ain’t your thang.

Gay male? Cool. But freaking out about how disgusting pussy is? Gimme a break.

Source: Brutereason

This reminds me of a related point I was telling my children about yesterday afternoon. (They're right in the middle of the school-age crush zone at the moment.) Specifically my daughter mentioned a friend's disappointment upon learning that White Collar star Matt Bomer is not just gay but happily raising three children with his partner. My observation was that orientation really matters if and only if the person in question is a direct prospective partner. Which pretty much by-definition Matt Bomer, who lives a continent away, isn't now and isn't likely to be. Nor would it matter if my daughter's friend was a gay-identifying male: Matt Bomer still lives a continent -- not to mention a generation -- away!

This post fits in really nicely with that point! Consider the 1990s trope of people joking about then-attorney-general Janet Reno's lack of conventional/cliche sex appeal. Or the more recent "positive" comments about Sarah Palin or Michelle Bachman's conventional/cliche good looks. Or the ambiguous but unnecessarily derogatory and/or adulatory remarks about nominally conservative performance artist Ann Coulter's appearance.

It doesn't matter because, since they probably wouldn't sleep with you, their looks, orientation, speculative, or even real talents in bed have no, zero, none bearing on one's fandom.

And, as you say so nicely, it even has no bearing if you're the one who wouldn't sleep with them! There's never, ever a reason to say anything more than "not my type."

Not least because saying anything more reveals far more about you than it does about the object of one's scorn.

And of course the added bonus confrontation when faced with someone's virulent rejection of, say, Marylin Monroe's mole or Paul Ryan's hairline or (my personal bugaboo) the makeup worn by various Kardashians.. or is that spelled Cardassians would be "projection much?" And/or "Trying to pass?"


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On Differences Between Appreciation of Beauty and Gendered Expectations of Appreciation of Beauty

KinkInExile has this to say about beauty. It's not clear that she's talking about gendered beauty but it's clear she's talking about her beauty.

For all the time and money I spend on beauty, fashion and the like, this morning caught me by surprise.  This morning, for reasons that are far too convoluted to go into right now, I ended up breaking down tents, dragging around easy ups, packing trucks, loading and unloading food, and generally scrambling to pull things out of the Occupy Oakland encampment ahead of an advancing police line in the mud while also smiling at and trying to be friendly and engaging toward the police.  After what felt like a sprint of activity both in its intensity and its briefness, as I disrobed next to the washing machine in my apartment and stood in a hallway, sweaty, sore, and naked except for the bandana I had used to tie my unwashed hair out of my face, I realized I hadn’t felt that beautiful in ages.

Source: Kink In Exile

I raise that mostly to contrast with an anonymous correspondent to Em & Lo implicitly offered a substantially gendered view of beauty in general and hers in particular.

Why do guys cheat down? Meaning, picking a woman less attractive. My husband cheated on me with a woman twice my size. He said he found her unattractive but couldn’t help himself. Another friend of mine (she is a model) had her husband cheat on her. It was while he was out of town and all the women were less attractive. Of course these are just two examples. I was always under the impression that if you are going to cheat, at least make it worth it.

She said it here.

So the first question should always be who's idea of beauty are we talking about? Society's? The correspondents? Her partners? My guess is that there's a difference in her experience of society's philosophy of men's relationship beauty and her partner's actual experience of it. (Which is in collision with his experience of society's expectation of him.)

Second question: What makes so many people think that conventional/consensus beauty is the only reliable metric for male attraction? Especially when it so often isn't a very good metric?

Third question: What makes her think beauty for men is an apex rather than a threshold, such that no matter how beautiful one woman is men will inevitably prefer someone even more beautiful?

Fourth question: When woman A is less beautiful but still preferred to woman B, why is the assumption that woman A must "give better head?")

Fifth question: Where do so many people get the idea that beauty is like some kind of points system such that if you’ve got more you automatically win? Or else that it’s an entitlement such that if you’ve got more you should automatically win?

Next question: Would the correspondent feel somehow better if he instead cheated “up?” (If so… if one really would feel better… then stop right there and think about that! Because really?)

Final question: I’m… pretty sure the correspondent would feel insulted if someone suggested that she, like "all women," was attracted to men based only on the gendered masculine quality of income or worth. So why think that men, including her partner, are attracted only on the gendered feminine quality of “beauty?”

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As long as we're on the subject of gendered notions of attraction, try running the numbers again for men, substituting worthiness for beauty. For question four, replace "must give good head" with "must have a big dick."

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A lot of years ago a now-dark blogger named Sam Sugar, trying to make a claim about men's nature, said something like "given two women with similarly attractive personalities men will choose the more beautiful one every time." It's actually even true... but not particularly telling. First because what at least ought to be an obvious corollary: "given two women with similar beauty, men will choose the one with the more attractive personality. Second the same true but empty observation could be made about women's attraction to men.

I think the fallacy, which Sam Sugar was perpetuating and which I think a lot of people fall for, is the idea that men simply aren't aware of any qualities other than beauty in women such that they express deep surprise when men actually do enjoy and often prefer other qualities more.

Similarly, of course, it seems to perpetually surprise people when women fail to ignore beauty in men.

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If you look at beauty in KinkInExile's terms I think it's a lot harder to have disconnects between social expectations and our actual experiences.

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Disclaimer: I know I sound like I'm all about heteronormativity all the time. Instead just think there's a lot more unconscious assumptions to question about heteronormativity, and that it takes a lot more effort to become conscious of them.


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The Two Rules of Desire, Theories of "Hypergamy," and HotChicksWithDouchebags.com

Photo from HotChicksWithDouchebags.co. Cached as a bandwidth-conserving courtesy
Photo HotChicksWithDouchebags.com.

Doesn't it seem like the website Hot Chicks with Douchebags is both a refutation of huge chunks of the "hypergamy" meme and a pretty big hint as to whether the (mostly male) notion is descriptive or prescriptive.

Photo from HotChicksWithDouchebags.com. Cached as a bandwidth-conserving courtesy
Photo HotChicksWithDouchebags.com.

Because who, exactly, is registering disapproval of the gentlemen depicted? More to the point, who's registering disapproval of the choice of the women who seem attracted to the gentlemen in question?

Tool through some random pages on Hot Chicks with Douchebags for more examples.

Sort of by-definition it isn't the women themselves.

Chances are at least above average that it's not other women.

The website's author is a man, as are virtually all commenters.

I mean, there are a couple of possible explanations.

Photo from HotChicksWithDouchebags.co. Cached as a bandwidth-conserving courtesy
Photo HotChicksWithDouchebags.com.

First, of course, it could be that men's understanding of what women find attractive is different from what women actually find attractive, hot, or cute.

Another possibility is that for every Jack there's a Jill, but that outside certain fevered dreams the criteria doesn't revolve around obvious manifestations of wealth, taste, class, fame, appearance, flamboyance and ostentation, whatever you'd call the opposite of flamboyance and ostentation.

Photo by from My Darkest Days Myspace. Cached as a bandwidth-conserving courtesy
Photo from My Darkest Days' Myspace page.

Another possibility is that just like the stereotypes about men, women distinguish between who they'd like long-term relationships with vs. who they're drawn to for one-night stands. (Although this would conflict with the "hypergamy" and "evolutionary psychology" theory that all women all the time desire only long-term monogamous relationships.)

Or it could be that, as with men, there's simply no such thing as "what women should find attractive" even though on average both men and women might be drawn to potential partners who match conventions of attractiveness.

Photo from HotChicksWithDouchebags.co. Cached as a bandwidth-conserving courtesy
Photo HotChicksWithDouchebags.com.

I'm sort of leaning towards the first item, and definitely towards the last.

Question: What's your take?

Bonus question: are there any websites run by women that register similar objections to women who don't fit stereotypes of attractiveness but nevertheless do in fact have conventionally attractive male partners?

Note: One of these pics, above, is not like the other ones. Mainly because we do have independent verification that at least one person thinks at least one of the gentlemen in question is extravagantly no-strings-attached attractive "assuming he agrees not to talk and to wear an industrial-strength condom."


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In the Face of Expectations


Photo by Photobucket user Wolf2Roger. Copyright Photobucket.com

The sea was wet as wet could be,
The sands were dry as dry.
You could not see a cloud, because
No cloud was in the sky:
No birds were flying overhead —
There were no birds to fly.

The Walrus and the Carpenter
Were walking close at hand;
They wept like anything to see
Such quantities of sand:
‘If this were only cleared away,’
They said, ‘it would be grand!’

‘If seven maids with seven mops
Swept it for half a year,
Do you suppose,’ the Walrus said,
‘That they could get it clear?’
‘I doubt it,’ said the Carpenter,
And shed a bitter tear.

from Lewis Carrol’s The Walrus and the Carpenter

Samara Ginsberg of The F-Word Blog reviews the Seduced exhibition of sexuality in ancient and modern art at the Barbican museum.

By far the most interesting installation from a feminist point of view was Requiem – k r buxey’s answer to Andy Warhol’s Blowjob (a 35-minute film of a man’s face as he receives oral sex). Buxey films herself receiving oral sex from an unseen partner to the soundtrack of Fauré‘s Requiem. The idea behind this is a subversion of mainstream porn, in which female orgasm is either fake or irrelevant.

I see it as an irrelevance whether or not buxey is “conventionally attractive” (she’s not). But what is very relevant is that she has made no effort with her appearance. She wears no make up. Her hair looks truly abominable. And she is totally unselfconscious. She does not look at the camera, she does not pout or lick her lips. She pulls really weird faces. Sometimes she almost looks as if she’s in pain. In fact, at one point I started thinking that if I didn’t know any better I might guess that she was giving birth.

That for me is the difference between sex-based art and porn. Porn exists to get the (usually male) viewer off. Art depicting sexuality has no such purpose – sex is just a subject matter. If it gets you off, good for you, but that’s not what it’s there for. In theory Requiem is an incredibly interesting idea, but the reality was really rather dull to watch. Afer I got over the initial, “Oh my God, she’s actually filming herself getting head”, I just wasn’t interested any more. It wasn’t the slightest bit titillating, and the heterosexual male friend I was with said exactly the same. And the fact that watching someone having an orgasm can be so dull when it’s real and not intended as a show is fascinating in itself.

Read Ginsberg’s thoughts in context here.

Before I say a ton of positive things about Ginsberg’s response to k d buxey’s content can I just quickly say WTF to her contention that buxey’s not “conventionally attractive?” If you can handle modestly not-work-safe pages you can judge for yourself here (she’s most visible in the lower-right video) or here or, grouped together with Alan Rickman, and other notable Londoners, here (again bottom row, second from the right.) Point being that I think women are taught to hold other women to standards far, far higher than men do. And also note that while she says buxey’s appearance is an “irrelevance” to her, Ginsberg’s “making no effort…” packs quite a bit of judgment. But while I have a serious quibble about that, it’s still just a quibble. (Another quibble: Face-only orgasm porn isn’t that uncommon, see for instance the fairly long-running Beautiful Agony that’s dedicated to nothing else.)

But ignoring my ignorable petty quibbles, Ginsberg’s got some great points, the biggest one being that we don’t look like movie stars when we have sex! We often don’t make eye contact. We almost never look demure or rugged or coy or… mostly any of the ways sexy people look in glossy advertising and other forms of porn. Yeah, we often don’t notice because even when during sex with the lights on (still not all that common) we’re often glasses off, or too close to each other’s faces to focus, or too busy kissing, or at odd perspectives when sucking or licking our partners (and they’re necessarily at least partly obscured when they’re mouthing us), or depending on position we might not see their faces at all. And even when we could focus clearly on our partner’s faces we’re generally pretty caught up in our own erotic reality with it’s own delightful perceptual distortions.

Which means that, unless we videotape ourselves or our partners, or accidentally catch our own eyes in a mirror, we rarely have any idea how we, let alone others, really look when we’re really approaching our climaxes.

As Ginsberg says “Sometimes she almost looks as if she’s in pain. In fact, at one point I started thinking that if I didn’t know any better I might guess that she was giving birth.” Which requires a little additional unpacking. First, because without knocking her at all, to say “if I didn’t know better” is an accurate statement for almost all of us: we literally don’t know better. First because, of course, we really don’t see that many people giving birth, but second because we really don’t see that many people having orgasms either. We do look more like we’re in pain than not, though, and for that matter, during the early stages, when our focus is shifting from neurons at the top of the spine to those towards the bottom, our expressions more closely resemble anxiety, fear, or deep distraction.

Which all boils down to we’re not particularly pretty when we’re authentically aroused, and we certainly don’t look like properly appointed members of the gentility… [Aside: in this respect, at least, we do resemble people giving birth: just as there’s no way… or reason… to maintain one’s carefully composed, um, composure while pushing a baby, neither can one, nor does one need to, maintain composure during sex. But I digress… —fl]

As I was saying, we may not seem terribly genteel when we’re rocking our own or each other’s worlds, and we may not look conventionally “pretty” when we’re there, but oh my are we awesomely, amazingly, immediacy-of-nature beautiful.

Finally, it’s worth noticing that, as opposed to contrived conventions of what we’re taught arousal ought to look like, unless we ourselves are aroused or prepared to be, real arousal can draw our attention, yes, but without arousing us.

All cool insights that a) make me think that porn would be improved by Hollywood and b) make me wish for ways we could all become less self-conscious of our own arousal in the face of c) so many photogenic, perhaps, but therefore idealized sources.


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