[Kochanie is a frequent commenter here and she’s got a lot of great ideas. Yesterday she gave me a suggestion that was so well-formed I would have felt bad taking credit for it so I’m going to promote it to its own “guest blogging” post. I haven’t asked her permission to do so, and she may kill me for it, but promoting comments is an honored tradition in blogging so I’m going for it. —fl]
Figleaf,
In your response to AAG’s comment, you said that you are sometimes shy and sometimes bold. If you still wish to explore gender stereotypes, I think that shyness among men and boys would be a good topic.
When a man is shy about initiating a sexual advance, a woman can very easily misinterpret this as a lack of interest in her because she is too aggressive, or unappealing. Many relationships that barely started have met an untimely death because the woman assumed that ALL men were sexually bold, and a woman had to be VERY unattractive if a man did not hit upon her.
Similarly, a man may have walked away from a woman who was very attracted to him, because he felt shy, but was too embarassed to admit that shyness even to himself. Easier to say that the former girlfriend was too sexually aggressive.
Now there definitely are mismatches between low and high libido partners, as you and other bloggers have discussed. But in addition to differences in libido (which can vary for the same person throughout his/her lifetime), are we also complicating this compatibility issue by our assumptions about how normal men and women should behave sexually?
If you and your readers have already discussed this, just refer me to that post. You have almost 700 posts, and while I have read quite a few, I have not read all. Thank you.
Oh man you need to start your own blog, Kochanie. I’m so glad to have you here and I definitely love this idea — it’s all over my bugaboos about how stereotpe-based expectations torpedo us — but it would feel like poaching if I borrowed it.
You’ve raised some really good points.
Usually when I think about assumptions women make about men I’m still reacting to the oft-repeated assertion that men will never turn down an opportunity to get laid… even if our partner’s unwilling, even if our partner is unconscious, even if our partner is actually a horse, sheep, or goat. In other words, I’ve often been so worried that a potential partner thinks I want her only for her body that I may have left her thinking I didn’t want her at all!
The irony of it all is that when I was small my family’s favorite album was “My Fair Lady” and I know the words of Liza Dolittle’s complaint by heart:
Don’t talk of stars
Burning above;
If you’re in love,
Show me!Tell me no dreams
Filled with desire.
If you’re on fire,
Show me!Here we are together in the middle of the night!
Don’t talk of spring! Just hold me tight!
Anyone who’s ever been in love’ll tell you that
This is no time for a chat!Haven’t your lips
Longed for my touch?
Don’t say how much,
Show me!Show me!
Don’t talk of love
lasting through time.
Make me no undying vow.
Show me now!Sing me no song!
Read me no rhyme!
Don’t waste my time,
Show me!Don’t talk of June,
Don’t talk of fall!
Don’t talk at all!
Show me!Never do I ever want to hear another word.
There isn’t one I haven’t heard.
Here we are together in what ought to be a dream;
Day one more word and I’ll scream!Haven’t your arms
Hungered for mine?
Please don’t “expl’ine,”
Show me!Show me!
Don’t wait until
wrinkles and lines
Pop out all over my brow,
Show me now!
DOH! I knew it, literally, by heart and still spent much of my life mantled and cumbered in Sensitive New-Age Guy straight-jackets. Talk about living proof that knowledge alone does not equal power? :-)
One of the best things about blogging is the opportunity to learn from my mistakes. Thanks for another hard but rewarding lesson, Kochanie.
[Everyone, of course, is invited to chime in here in comments or on your own blogs about mismatches not in libido but in boldness and shyness.]
Submitted by 687 (not verified) on Wed, 2006-03-29 13:25.
How gratifying and lovely to read another's words of praise of my dear friend Kochanie. She's quite the inspiration and force for the good in my life. I suspect she'll be very flattered that you've responded so fully and so well to her comment.
It was a comment I found very perceptive and as I read it, several of my male friends flashed before my eyes (not literally, they are shy remember). They certainly find such bold behaviour incredibly challenging although once their shyness is breached, they are such passionate and poetic creatures.
As a sub, the experience of a shy yet dominant lover is a curious one yet beautiful in its own way. To assume men (and especially dominant men) should be stereotyically confident and controlling can be so limiting. There's a wealth of sensitivity the shy and quiet possess, a knowledge of their emotional and most intimate selves that their bolder counterparts may lack.
It's not and never 'either/or', but it is wise to watch for traps such as these. It's as foolish as believing a confident and assertive woman cannot submit as well as her quieter sister. I was painfully shy as a child, and I wonder still how much these tendencies colour my submission. The more confident I became as I got older, the more I noticed that men would equate that with dominance in the bedroom.
I'm aware this isn't a discussion about D/s, but it's an arena so terribly hijacked by stereotypes that it lends itself well to such thoughts.We ally dynamics and expectations to personality traits to our detriment.
All that said though, shy is very different to passive. Shy does not necessarily mean 'nice.' Breaking down expectations is an essential aspect of communication and accepting the person before us for what they are, not what we think they may be.
How hopeless, such a long response and I've still failed to express what I mean. Sorry Figleaf, I blame the gorgeous picture. I'm sure I was lucid before that.
["Shy is very different from passive." Nor, for that matter, is bold the same as active and/or dominant. I think it's ok to dwell on D/s because its conventions make it sort of a hothouse for our assumptions about everyday life. For myself, I've always resisted being dominating because I have no desire to be controlling. Over the last year or so I've begun to understand the difference. Thanks, Lena. Oh, and welcome back. --fl]
Submitted by 687 (not verified) on Wed, 2006-03-29 13:27.
Ah, Figleaf! I am honored. Thank you so much.
And now that I saw the photo, I'm speechless, but the good type of speechless. ;-)
[Thanks, Kochanie. I figured it wouldn't do to have a shy image with a bold post so... Still, I'm so teetery-tottery about how far to take things. --fl]
Submitted by 687 (not verified) on Wed, 2006-03-29 22:52.
I've been wanting to see a discussion on this for awhile. Just as I've been turning fifty I have been thinking back a lot about my twenties and how it often never occurred to me to "make a move" -- when with the wisdom of hindsight I realize that I might have been able to do so. It was not because I wasn't attracted, and it wasn't shyness exactly either. I make conversation and platonic friendships very easily.
But it's that whole business of "making a move." It was just about the time when we learned to be hesitant about praising women for their appearance -- I'm talking the '70s and '80s here -- and I would love to hear more about the "sensitive new age guy" syndrome (not to be confused I hope with the "nice guys" who are being trashed all over the Internet) because I do think there were some lessons that were overlearned by some of us.
When I think of dates that I didn't realize were dates -- phone numbers that I didn't call -- all the while bemoaning my uncoupledness, never realizing that thirty years later I would look back and think, "what were you thinking?"
It's been about twenty years since that issue has been important, all because a certain woman was just a little forward at first in expressing her interest...
But I suspect that this is an issue for more men than you'd think. Perhaps not because we're nicer than the others -- though at the time maybe I thought so. In some ways it was a kind of just plain cluelessness -- though I wasn't without experience, that wasn't it at all. But I do think that "assumptions" about male sexual boldness prevented the manual that I needed then from having been written -- "The guide to sexual boldness for the sensitive new age guy."
I'll bet that book is still needed today by many. But ... you know, I still don't think I could exactly write it.
[All good points, Humbition. And though you and I are similar in age and both clearly influenced by the same factors I'm pretty confident this isn't a generational thing,. Thanks! --fl]
Submitted by 687 (not verified) on Thu, 2006-03-30 09:18.
Kochanie does need to start her own blog. I'll be the first to welcome her to the party.
[No, me first! She really does, and we're not the only ones who think so. Right everybody? Thanks, Blue Gal. --fl]
Submitted by 687 (not verified) on Fri, 2006-03-31 00:12.
Blue Gal:
Thank you so much for your words of encouragement. I have visited your blog and enjoyed it, and your humor, very much. (I have to go back to read more about Anne Lammott and the revolution!) I hope that I will join the community of bloggers very soon, and when I do, I hope I will be as generous to other newbies as you, Figleaf and Magdelena have been to me.
[Cool, Kochanie. --fl]