I’ve kept meaning to mention this but Helen G of The F-Word Blog, astutely riffing off a RenegadeEvolution post about bra cups specifically designed to disguise hard nipples.
It seems that Playtex has introduced an additional little piece of foam lining in the bra cup – to disguise hard nipples. Shock horror outrage! Teh Wimminz have nipples! And they get hard! Ohz noez!!!1!eleventy-eleven!!1!!
As Ren says, Playtex have been “long known for their attention to modesty and the use of the word in their advertising” but I wonder quite what this is really all about. Is it, perhaps, an attempt to ‘help’ women take another step closer to appearing about as anatomically correct as Barbie, further objectifying and curiously de-sexing us on the way? Or is it Teh Menz who are offended by our natural bodies’ reactions, and wish us to cover ourselves to spare their blushes? Whose modesty is it anyway, to coin a phrase…
“Whose modesty is it anyway?” That is wonderful coinage! I’ve mentioned that one strategy inside the “no-sex” class paradigm is sexualization with overt signs of arousal (tip the pelvis back and breasts up with heels, redden the lips and cheeks with makeup, Victoria’s Secret marketing lingerie as something to be worn under business attire) even when someone’s not aroused in order to make it harder for potential partners to notice when she actually is interested. The new Playtex cup liners (like Wonderbras that expand the bustline while de-anatomizing actual breasts) would seem ideal for that purpose.
And one of the funny things about that, and the question “whose modesty” is that… well… chances are you know darn well if you’re actually aroused and… call me wrong here but if you really are then you’re not likely to mind letting your prospective partner know so… if the goal of clothing is to mask your arousal from others but not you then… yeah, it’s protecting men’s modesty.
And yes, that really is silly sounding since, after all, we’re supposed to be thrilled by loose blouses or short skirts. But that’s going back to the whole sexualization thing — if you just look “sexy” then we men can imagine ourselves picking and choosing where and when to “make our moves.” If we thought you were actually already horny then OMG*!!!WTF?K!: that would mean you might have a libido that we’re not in control of and as Helen G puts it Ohz noez!!!1!eleventy-eleven!!1!! (I just love imagining how that might actually be pronounced.)
I have a hunch it may actually be some kind of twisted amalgamation of the two. On one hand, women are being told that we may be embarrassed to discover – suddenly! – that we have nipples. On the other hand, perhaps it’s because of the risk of inflaming the manly-men’s passions, poor lambs: maybe they’re just unable to control their wild, animalistic urges if confronted with even the faintest shadow of a nipple through a bra and (presumably) top, and need to be shielded from this dangerously provocative sight.
Or maybe it’s that the construction of the male gender as “always ready” leaves us astonishingly vulnerable to the minor-in-real-life inconvenience of being approached when we might not be ready, willing, or able to respond and, therefore, might have to decline or ask for a rain check.
And I’m not trivializing that, if 10,000 versions of manliness (written, incidentally, by a parade of alcoholic, often successfully-suicidal, gay men trying to pass authors of fiction) says you have to always be in the lead, always in charge, always on the initiative, never not ready, then breakdowns of the illusion really might be cause for alarm.
Too bad about that though. Humans being human we’re all perfectly capable of both giving and receiving the initiative and enjoying it. Although for it to really work you both have to be able to give up the notion that men can’t say “no” and women can’t be told no without the universe collapsing on itself.
But now I’m really digressing. I just really, really like the question “Who’s modesty is it anyway?”
Submitted by 2235 (not verified) on Tue, 2008-06-17 18:25.
*raises hand*
Now I may be in the minority here, but... how about those of us who's nipples simply become hard without arousal. Don't get me wrong, it help certainly attracted my dear hubby but otherwise it's annoying. I'll say it again. Annoying. I like my fair share of stares but after awhile it's down right rude.
I don't like Playtex because they really don't have any idea how the average woman's body is built, one style is forced on everyone and why I don't buy their product. But back to point, if the bra was stylish enough I could and would use such a product espeically at work.
[I get that. Because even though it doesn't make any sense that we'd notice it's difficult not to. Thanks, Raven. --fl]
Submitted by 2235 (not verified) on Tue, 2008-06-17 19:53.
Like when it gets cold. Since you don't know how men are going to react in a business situation or even some women, who may get embarrassed; I opt for a bra thats not sheer. It's not even about modesty, its pragmatic.
Most other times I don't wear any.
I feel like John Stossel now, give me a break!
[Yup. I remember going out with someone who said her mom would get mad at her and say she should wear band-aids over hers so they wouldn't push through so much. I totally get that it's distracting (it distracts me!) but I still don't get exactly why. Thanks, Five. --fl]
Submitted by 2235 (not verified) on Tue, 2008-06-17 21:47.
I think the "problem" with hard nipples is not the idea that women may have a libido that men don't control. At least, I don't think it is that in and of itself. I think the real problem is that if women can become aroused of her own choice and free will, that means she may also "NOT" become aroused. I don't think the issue is one of control, but a fear of possible rejection.
If we admit that women have a libido and control over it, than we bust the myth that a man can "conquer" a woman. We give women the freedom to be picky and at the same time give them the possibility to reject certain men.
[The wiggy thing about a fear of rejection, though, would be that you'd expect we'd want *clearer* signals of interest. Which is why I keep believing that whatever we *say* we secretly *expect* rejection. That doesn't mean we *like* it, just that we feel reassured when we get it. And yes, I think that sounds nuts but it explains more than other theories. But I love your point that having a libido and having control over it means you can also independently *not* be aroused. I swear I don't get we think we have to have control over anyone before we can get into it. Thanks, Christina. --fl]
Submitted by 2235 (not verified) on Tue, 2008-06-17 22:02.
Indeed. Nipples get hard with cold or friction and then they CHAFE! Owwwwwww!
(not that I wear bras... but I do sometimes switch to less-chafing shirts for that very reason)
utar Olinville
[Hi Plymouth. I remember my nipples getting irritated sometimes from being outside in weather too chilly for a t-shirt. And mine are tiny. --fl]
Submitted by 2235 (not verified) on Wed, 2008-06-18 07:31.
Meh. Bra manufacturers just make me angry. I didn't know about modesty pads, but the other extreme of the spectrum is just as odious. I hate shopping for bras because I can never find ones that don't have giant pads on the cup bottom to make breasts look bigger. I want to be able to see in front of my eyes, dammit! Besides, all that padding takes away the possibility of a light fingernail caress on the right moment.
["Besides, all that padding takes away..." Which from my dumb-guy "what do I know" standpoint sort of implies they expect you to give up feeling sexual in order to look sexualized. Thanks, CB. --fl]
Submitted by 2235 (not verified) on Wed, 2008-06-18 08:46.
I don't know, I can definitely see how the padded bras would help in work situations. I'm a high school teacher in my day job and I've had times where my (extremely sensitive to temperature) nipples showed through a regularly thick bra, camisole, and a button down top and been reprimanded for it (I also got reprimanded once at a different school for wearing tight sweaters to work, but in my defense, I was breastfeeding at the time and my normally fairly large breasts were ridiculously huge and everything was tight, if I could get it to close at all--sweaters were really the only thing I could wear). Like it was something that I have any control whatsoever over. It's ridiculous that I have to deal with this or that anyone would even care, I've even sometimes taken to wearing the foam pads that help with breastfeeding leaks in the winter to hide it while at work.
So, while I don't generally like Playtex, because as Raven said, they definitely aren't shaped anything like I am, I can see how that's a good idea for some people in some situations.
[In other words the question "who's modesty" is really important. Because... I dunno... it's just that in nearly half a century of noticing nursing mothers I've never seen anyone going out of her way to "flash" her breasts while doing it. And they *aren't* just for sex. But if they make other people "uncomfortable" then it's suddenly *your* problem. And the silly thing, of course, is how quickly they fade into the background (conceptually, not physically) in places like nude beaches, saunas, and hot tubs. (Nudity doesn't change whether breasts are attractive, any more than it changes faces, hands or feet. It just changes whether people are *obsessive.*) And so it's like if *everybody* did it it wouldn't be a problem either. It's got to be very annoying. Thanks, Ks. --fl]
Submitted by 2235 (not verified) on Wed, 2008-06-18 09:03.
My much bigger gripe: The difficulty of finding bras without underwire even in A and B cups.
At the risk of just sounding contrarian: I sort of like my nipples to be concealed under ordinary circumstances, partly because - as ks said - if you teach, you're on display. You're performing. I don't want to appear dessicated, but I also don't want to look as though I'm being intentionally provocative. At the college level, you're not likely to be reprimanded as ks was, but your students still assess and judge how you present yourself, and perhaps all the more so since I teach women's studies. Then again, if I were a male teacher, I wouldn't want to walk into the classroom with a visible erection, either!
But the main reason? If my nipples are ordinarily out of view, then when a partner sees them outlined under snug fabric, it *means* something. Not just that I'm aroused, but that I'm willing and eager to *act on it.* And that has *nothing* to do with modesty. :-)
[Agreed, that has nothing to do with modesty, Sungold. :-) Thanks. --fl]
Submitted by 2235 (not verified) on Wed, 2008-06-18 16:01.
I'm really just repeating what others said, but I can completely see the modesty pads being useful in the work environment, to protect the MEN'S modesty.
When I was a young associate in a medium size-law firm, I wore poly or silk blouses most days under my suits. Around the office, I didn't wear the suit jacket (just as most men did not either). After a meeting in a particularly chilly room, a senior partner's secretary came to talk to me. Apparently the partner was distracted by my nipples throughout the meeting and asked his secretary to come talk to me about dressing more modestly in the office and that if I didn't "take care of" this problem it would be addressed at my quarterly review. Now my blouses were all crew- or jewel-necked, no v-necks or anything else "low-cut." I was dressed very professionally. But my status as an associate (i.e., an employee, not a shareholder in the firm) was threatened because my nipples were apparent through my blouse and bra. After that, I wore thicker bras, bandaids on my nipples, or kept my jacket on outside my own office. I was self-conscious from that day forward.
[I suppose men could worry about the same sort of "consequences" on others if they wore tight pants but... otherwise no. I mean, yeah, I can see how if we're conditioned to see nipples as sexualized then people are better off covering them. And I might add that different decades seem to sexualize them more or less than others. But it's a nuisance based on a combination of misunderstanding and "scarcity." Which is kind of a ticker. (Band-aid adhesive is a literal pain on tender skin, as I remember from my nicotine-patch days.) Thanks, Bunny. --fl]
Submitted by 2235 (not verified) on Sat, 2008-06-21 04:18.
This has proved to be interesting reading for me. I have added another dimension to this "problem", in that I have a nipple piercing, and depending on what "jewellery" I am wearing in the piercing, it appears more visible when I am dressed. I am also a swimmer, and I've had a few men (and women) give me a second glance in the pool, when they see evidence of the jewellery!
My attitude is nipples are nipples, and we all have them. If you're not comfortable seeing my nipples making their presence felt through my clothing, then please... look away now!
[Interesting point, Helga. To be honest I've almost never noticed nipple piercings on women through clothes. Men yes. I'm guessing it's bras, and maybe padding too? Hmm... Thanks. --fl]