Sam Sugar of SugarBank is as puzzled as I am why so many men are drawn to women with larger breasts.
Until very recently, it was a mystery to evolutionary psychology why men prefer women with large breasts, since the size of a woman’s breasts has no relationship to her ability to lactate. But Harvard anthropologist Frank Marlowe contends that larger, and hence heavier, breasts sag more conspicuously with age than do smaller breasts. Thus they make it easier for men to judge a woman’s age (and her reproductive value) by sightâ€â€suggesting why men find women with large breasts more attractive.
Stephen J. Dubner is calling BS and says:
I would think that, even during the Stone Age, if a man had to resort to judging a woman’s age by the relative sag of her breasts instead of a number of other signifiers, he probably wasn’t the kind of fellow who was going to successfully reproduce anyway.
...
Besides if breasts are a clue to age and men are more attracted to more fertile (i.e. younger) women, the ideal breasts would be small and pert which indicate sexual maturity and youth simultaneously. The research says most men go for bigger though.
I know evolutionary psychology (which in practice seems to be unto Sociobiology as Intelligent Design is unto Creationism) is a personal bugaboo of mine but stuff like requiring sexual/reproductive reasons for preferring one type of breast over another. It’s especially galling because, as Steven Dubner points out, most of the proposed solutions require humans in general and men in particular to be really, really, really stupid. And I mean stupid stupid, not just frat-boy-on-a-bender stupid or even contestant-on-The-Darwin-Awards stupid.
And don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying there are no, none, nada, nix, zilch naturally selected behaviors at work between men and women. I’m just saying they have to meet a degree of sophistication at least equivalent to the greater and lesser primates to whom we’re taxonomically related. And as far as I know not even proto-primates like the tarsiers [See photo at right —fl] are that poorly socially organized that something like slightly bigger boobs would be a sufficiently critical discriminant in mate selection for selective pressure to overcome what even to this day is proportionately extreme variability.
Actually I’m more puzzled about why people keep telling each other we prefer bigger breasts when there’s so little actual evidence. For instance the previous links are taken from high in Ask-Men’s top-99 “most desirable women” list — yet all are quite a bit smaller-breasted than many of the women who appeared lower in the list.)
Submitted by 1492 (not verified) on Tue, 2007-07-17 14:08.
I *did* start wading through the top 99, and realised very rapidly that it's all a bit arbitrary. Where does larger stop and smaller begin? It all depends on your own personal perspective I imagine :)
[It's a good question -- even the "champaigne glass" or "more than a handful" metrics are a little inconclusive since even breasts of the same nominal bra size can appear very, very different. Hmm. But the weird thing is the conversation just keeps coming back with "men like 'em big." And sure, some of them do just like some women like men with big penises. But in either case they aren't the majority... yet they're supposed to represent the norm. I dunno. There's just some lesson there and I'm not getting it. Thanks, A. --fl]
Submitted by 1492 (not verified) on Tue, 2007-07-17 18:24.
Some people are paid to do such researches?? Really???
This is amazing....
It is putting all we are into some blender and pick out of it what it's left and make a big thing about it...
Breasts sizes??? Wow!! what a problem... I've been from 32AA at 25... to 38D at 26... I had a baby...
I came back, slowy to my small breasts... but not as small as before... 34A... to a 38D... I had another baby... and 3 years after I was back to a 34A...
I am now a pre-menauposed woman... and from my 34A, I reached a 36C... for how long??? I don't know... But can I say that this never had any impact on how the male gender reacted toward me???
Not at all!! And I think I got more success while being a 34A than anything bigger... But could it be about my receptivity??? All those studies as bias... a way or another, and just don't make sense for regular people... like me... ;-((
[First of all thanks for playing "case in point" when it comes to your different sizes, SeaRabbit. Also, excellent point about receptivity -- I think a lot of us are affected by these ideals (like breast size or penis size or whatever) in such a way that even though it doesn't matter to our partners it matters *to us.* So sort of like the story of Dumbo with the feather, we think we can't fly without it and so we don't try. Or something. Thanks again. --fl]
Submitted by 1492 (not verified) on Tue, 2007-07-17 20:50.
Couple of things.
First, I think people (because this preference should not be relegated to men) are attracted to larger breasts because size matters. One likes a mouth/handful in just the same way as a cunt-full.
Second, I think many of the women on that list don't have large breasts because most of them are a size 2. Or less. Low body weight affects breast size, too.
And then you have this woman. And her packged breasts. Which, remember, don't move when she walks. VERY attractive, no?
Eve
[Agreed that many, many "top celebrities" are also astonishingly small women. (In porn they're often closer to size zero!) Some women in the list (Jolie and Johansson, for instance) are quite busty. But most of the rest (of the first 15, which is as far as I bothered to go) aren't nearly so. Thanks, Eve. --fl]
Submitted by 1492 (not verified) on Mon, 2007-07-16 20:24.
yes, when you walk down the street and see big boobs. You have to look, to see if they move,I look too.
[Agreed, I have to (or at least want to) look to see if and/or how they move. I'm just not sure how that would related so compellingly to the genetics of human mate determination that we could argue it was innate -- I mean, as you say, you look to so... where's the *reproductive* benefit of that? (The trick, I think, is that there are other criteria for survival of a member of a species than *sexual* selection.) Thanks, Kate. --fl]
Submitted by 1492 (not verified) on Tue, 2007-07-17 10:53.
Actualy, every study I have ever seen on the subject has shwon that either hetero men (yes, I am considering myself the self-assigned guardian of this with you lately, sorry if it's patronizing -- or is that matronizing?) as a whole either a) don't have any preference at all, or b) when they do find preference in groups, it tends to be for smaller, rather than larger, breasts.
Mind, I haven't looked those studies up in a while, and when I did, it was for insecure teen girls, so for all I know, with the big increases in breast augmentation, those stats may be changing.
[Ok, properly busted on the heteronormativity thing. As for breast size, no I'm pretty sure you're right that the giant-breast thing is, if not an outright myth, then at least more of a meme than reality. Which leaves me back at wondering *why we keep telling ourselves men prefer otherwise!* Thanks Heather. --fl]
Submitted by 1492 (not verified) on Tue, 2007-07-17 11:37.
I am an an owner of small-ish breasts (34B), and I really wish they were even smaller. I would never have surgery to accomplish this, but if I could *wish* them smaller I would've done so years ago, when I first outgrew an A cup. I agree that there is a powerful cultural (thus geo-and-temporally-relative) component to the supposed preference for larger breasts, which cannot be explained away with biological theories alone.
I don't have the patience to go through and analyze the top 99 list, so I will take you at your word, Fig, that most of the topmost are on the small side, breast-wise. But there is no doubting the effects of society's attention (here I mean southern US, where I attended high school) to big breasts upon the young women who have them. The fawning, dopey gaze that hormone-fueled adolescent boys fix upon breasts can really impact the social and intellectual direction of young women. It's not helped by the tendency of American males to continue this habit well into their twenties and beyond, not to mention the obsession in the media with the whole issue. Despite this, I had no problem finding men happy with my small boobs.
Even as a slow-blooming 17-yr-old college student, when I still was small enough to go bra-less, I was thankful to *not* be on the receiving end of such primal attentions, which left me the space to develop my "brainy" side. Now in my 40s, still unable to "wish" my breasts smaller, I long to once again ditch the bra--an absolutely uncomfortable garment that binds in all the wrong ways.
By the way, I am a new-ish reader/lurker of your blog, and I enjoy your writing and photos--don't reveal more than you have already! Anticipation is the best turn-on.
[Well first of all, thanks for stopping by, Espe, I really appreciate your comment. Secondly I think I know what you mean about bust size in the south being almost more of a *status* thing than an erotic one. As for bras that don't fit, I'm sure you've tried getting professionally fitted already but long ago a co-worker's mom (conservative, highly religious) who was some sort of private bra-sales person forcefully sold me on how hard it is to fit one's own self. I know, I know, not really my department but it was hers and she made some excellent points. Thanks again. --fl]
Submitted by 1492 (not verified) on Mon, 2007-07-16 15:21.
I think it is a cultural thing. Big butts was the thing when I grew up. Of course, I was self conscious because mine isn't. I would guess it would be who you ask.
[Bingo, Five! Preferences vary way to much from generation to generation for any definitively genetic preferences to be very specific at all, at all. Is there something there? Well, we do have genes and we are related to other animals so sure, almost certainly yes. Are they the obvious things people keep pointing to? Not so much. Thanks! --fl]
Submitted by 1492 (not verified) on Mon, 2007-07-16 16:55.
Good Monday afternoon Figleaf !
I think visuals will always draw attention, and pleasing proportions even more so !
Larger is not always better, but it doesn't stop someone from looking... only in some cases, it may be a source of amusement rather than lust.
A woman's breasts are just as enticing to a man as is his chest to a woman...
It's different, it's part of your body, your shape, your warmth, and yes, part of what you play with when you are clothed or naked.
Breasts are just interesting. And a c-cup will be more intriguing to the imagination of many than an a-cup...
Not always, but... It's sort of like a large penis gets more stares from a woman than a small one will. Doesn't mean that a woman won't love a man who is not well-endowed, just means that larger is something erotic to look at.
Excessive - no. Perfectly sized - yes. In either sex.
p.s. I just started a new erotica blog
"Mhmmm yes I love that"
at http://www.yesilovethat.blogspot.com
I hope that you will come visit and enjoy what you read !
Explicitly,
Loving Annie
[Thanks, Annie. --fl]
Submitted by 1492 (not verified) on Mon, 2007-07-16 16:24.
As I was finished reading this post, I had another thought as to why some men prefer women with larger breasts, myself included. It is, for me, because I prefer curvy women and so with curvy women tend to come larger breasts. It is the curves that turn me on, not the breast size.
And maybe this explains better why bigger breasts are desirable it leads to women being curvier and maybe better able to carry a child, so for early man since he wanted a mate that could produce offspring it was important that on sight the man would be able to make this judgment. Now we know that all women can carry children and do not need to have "birthing hips", but I am sure for early man this was not necessarily understood. I would still call bullshit on this theory as well to be honest but it makes more sense than judging a woman's age by the sag of her breasts. It is all in the personal preference.
[I'm actually pretty sure that when "early man" was early enough to be driven purely by visual cues, those species tended to also be *extremely* gracile (i.e. skinny and relatively narrow-hipped.) I think the problem is that when we think about evolution and humans we think about it strictly in terms of *sexual* selection, forgetting that there are at least four other survival, um..., avenues? paths? um, call it criteria since I can't remember the right term. Anyway, the point being that there could be or could have been a survival benefit to preferring rounded or curved things and, consequently, we happen to like partners with curves as well. And not at all because it indicates "birthing hips." The point being that sociobiology that makes it all about sex *might* be right but, since they rarely look anywhere else, are likely not. Thanks, BR. --fl]
Submitted by 1492 (not verified) on Tue, 2007-07-17 13:55.
I so agree with Hathor/Five of Nine. You only have to walk around an art gallery to see how the shape of the "ideal" woman has changed over the ages.
Will breast enlargement surgery some day be looked upon in the same way as foot binding is now? For centuries men considered bound feet to be a major erotic zone. "When a Celestial takes into his hand a woman's foot, especially if it is very small, the effect upon him is precisely the same as is provoked in a European by a young and firm bosom...", as well as keeping women controlled, according to this article, amongst others.
[Yup, and goodness knows what "say no more" types will be claiming has precisely this or that effect on other people. :-) I completely agree about body preference over the ages. Thanks, A. --fl]
Submitted by 1492 (not verified) on Wed, 2007-07-18 21:06.
Why do men love large breasts? Why do they love those huge pickups with monster truck wheels? Why are they partial to long hair? What about an 8 ounce steak wrapped in bacon. Fries? Super size me.
Of course, that whole theory gets blown out of the water with cell phones. Pretty soon they are going to be so small we'll have to use those plastic pen things to push the numbers.
My point being is that society has drilled into us many of our stereotypical desires. Breasts? BIG. Cell phones? Teeny tiny.
[Oh yeah, cell phones? Gimmie something that'll fit in the watch pocket in a pair of jeans! As for the supersize business? While it's probably not as straightforward as "anything bigger is better," such an explanation would preserve us from silly claims that men would be too stupid to try to have sex without big hooters to guide them in for a landing... or something. :-) Thank you, DFP! --fl]