While catching up on my post-laptop-loss reading I saw that Holly of Self-portrait as had an interesting point last month about women and breast size.
One day I listened to Muriel and Jane, a couple of my well endowed friends, decry a survey they’d just read in some women’s magazine, in which the majority of men questioned said that any woman with a B cup or smaller should get breast implants
...
What pigs these men were, my friends agreed! Why couldn’t they just love the bodies of their flat-chested girlfriends and wives, without expecting the women to undergo surgery in order to fit some stereotype of desirability? Why are women’s bodies so often condemned and found wanting if they don’t meet some ridiculous ideal?
I didn’t say much. What could I say? I’m one of the women the majority of survey respondents would send to some plastic surgeon, so he could slice me open and stitch mushy sacs of fluid into the muscles of my chest. And yet, on the list of ways men have treated me badly, “Told me my tits were too small” does not appear. In fact, many men have been quite complimentary of what I had to offer in that domain. But my big-breasted friends wouldn’t want to believe that. And I know that because of a few other conversations I had with them.
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As I tried to characterize [the Charlie’s Angles movie] for this friend, I said it was like a live-action Power Puff Girls, and then, thinking of the scenes I just mentioned, I said, “And it’s also a tits and ass movie.”
Jane said, “How can that be? Drew Barrymore is the only one with real tits.”
I said, “What do you mean?”
She said, “Aren’t Cameron Diaz and Lucy Liu pretty flat-chested?”
I said, “They’re not THAT flat chested, and any way, that doesn’t mean their breasts aren’t real.”
She said, “Oh, I’m sorry. I mean ‘huge’ tits, not ‘real’ tits.”
But what my large-breasted friend REALLY meant is that only huge tits are real tits.
There’ve been several other references to breast size and judgment around the blogosphere lately, including a good question in comments by MandalayVA of I’m not sorry about implants (see the comments here) and a visual exercise in the politics and ergonomics of Jessica Valenti’s sweater by Lynn Gassiz-Sax of Noli Irritare Leones.
Me? I think breasts are cool — enough so that they anchor my sexual orientation to adult women — but I’ve never really thought of them in terms of size. [Full disclosure: elsewhere I’ve admitted a bias towards smaller than larger breasts. —fl] I’ve been aware of American men’s alleged obsession with large breasts for almost as long as I can remember, but I’d never heard about women having similar attitudes.
So anyway, are Holly’s friends just a blip or have I just bought into the men-are-obsessed so heavily I’ve overlooked it’s counterpart? I mean, is this one of those things where once you drop your preconceptions and start looking around the more instances you start to notice?
Submitted by 934 (not verified) on Fri, 2006-09-29 18:00.
First of all "flat chested" is a misnomer!
(I have breasts but they are smaller than the average, I haven't been flat chested since I was 10.)
I, too, am smaller than average so that means that my smaller than average breasts FIT my smaller than average body.
I've never had a man tell me that I need or should get a boob job. HOWEVER I have had MANY, MANY woman ask me, "WHEN are you getting a boob job?" or "Why don't you get implants?" or insult me by implying that my small breast size means I am less of a woman than someone with larger breasts, usually the woman doing the implying!
When I have complained about society's obsession with large breasts and the impossibility of finding smaller sized bras I've been told, by these women, that I can fix that by having implants!
No, I can fix it by telling people that I am not breast deficient I just have small breasts.
Is a woman foot deficient because they do not have the average 7 ½ woman's shoe size?
No, they just have smaller feet!
I am not jealous of women with larger breasts though most people assume that I am. I can be jealous, though, of the attention they receive ESPECIALLY in my business.
I was just lamenting the fact that I am never offered the sexy leading lady roles even though I KNOW I could kick ass in those parts. I am forever consigned to the best friend roles. The sexy roles ALWAYS go to women with larger breasts regardless of their talent because in many a director's mind big breasts equate sexy.
I get upset because it is quite OK to make fun of small breasted women, it's ok to say that we some how do not measure up to women with larger breasts.
Replace "flat chested" with an ethic group or religion or with fat or special abled and say that they do not measure up and all of a sudden it's impolite, racists, and politically incorrect but because there is a procedure that can relieve me of my "malformation" it's ok to make fun of us.
I am no less of a person because of my smaller stature and I am no less a woman because of my smaller breast size.
[I guess it's indicative that they call getting implants "cosmetic surgery." Which makes them appropriate only if one's breasts somehow look "bad." Like you said yours fit your frame and fitness level very nicely. As do most people's. Therefore you can look *different* with implants but not *better.* I like your comparison to feet, by the way. Thank you. --fl]
Submitted by 934 (not verified) on Fri, 2006-09-29 19:08.
It's like anything else body-related. You get made fun of if you're "too big" or "too small." Anything that deviates from a perky C cup is going to be made fun of, in one way or another. Pitching women against each other based on breast size is just another way to divide and conquer women based on appearance.
So, in general, if one's friends pull that kind of shit, one's friends are also shallow and not so bright. Make some new friends.
[You mean anything that deviates from a C cup *these days* is going to be made fun of. Again, back in the 1920s it was anything that deviated from an champagne-glass A cup. In the Gibson Girl era it was B cups, and it was A and B cups again in the braless Charlie's Angels 1970's. In the era Mae West made fun of it was more like a D cup. I'm guessing that with obesity on the rise and half of all American women now wearing a D cup or larger... who knows. But yeah, whatever the era it's a good idea to get new friends than put up with judgmental morons. (He said judgmentally.) Thanks, Veronica. --fl]
Submitted by 934 (not verified) on Fri, 2006-09-29 20:35.
I agree with Veronica. I am a large-breasted woman and I have never seen women with small breasts as "flat" or "lacking real breasts." I would never ask someone when she was getting breast implants because I somehow have the antiquated notion that asking people direct questions about the surgeries they may or may not have is rude.
What I have done, pretty much every day since these damn things sprouted on my chest, is wish that they were smaller. Not because of anything other women have ever said to me--in fact I don't think any women have ever commented on my breasts to my face--but because they hurt my back, flop around when I run or play tennis, make me look disproportionately top-heavy (I'm a petite woman otherwise) and require ugly bras that look like industrial trusses.
[I'm pretty sure I know more women who've had breast reduction than breast implants so you're not the only one who's felt they get in the way. Thanks, Mu Ling. --fl]
Submitted by 934 (not verified) on Fri, 2006-09-29 20:50.
I have to agree with the two commenters above. I am a full C cup and don't look at that as any more valid than women with an A, B, D, E, F, etc. I have never heard of any of my friends discuss breast size in a judgemental fashion.
My thought concludes with this. Love the skin your in. And if you are not happy with anything, change it for yourself and yourself only. I know when mine fall down one day, I will have no problem letting a doctor put them back where they started and since I would not prefer a foreign object in my body, that means I will have smaller breasts...and love them just the same and most probably even more!
xoxo,
Bug
[Yup. I totally agree it's up to you. And that if you're going to do it it's best to do it for yourself and not for anyone else. Thanks, Mellissa! --fl]
Submitted by 934 (not verified) on Fri, 2006-09-29 20:58.
Frankly I think the grass is always greener in someone else's bra... I was a 36C when I was a 11. In those days, it made me feel like a freak and boys weren't interested in a girl like me... they saw those breasts and assumed that I was fat. I wasn't, but I think that it led to me becoming that way. It was a given for too much of my adolescence. And though boys my age saw me that way, it was better than the sexual attention that I got from older men. I was built like a grown woman after all.
Fat was better than uncomfortable.
A couple of years ago, I met a woman who was a mom at my kids school. In her 20s she was a model in Paris. I can honestly say, I have never met a woman more beautiful. Yet, even this woman had her body issues... see, she was the last in her class to develop and to this day is not very large (she can wear a child's small t-shirt... and does).
I realized then that is pointless to think about these things. If this woman worries about how her body looks and if her breasts are too small... well there is no hope for the rest of us. That this obsession is universal.
This being said, it has taken me years to become more comfortable with my body and it is an ongoing process at best. I have encountered men men who treat me like a freak because of the way I look.. and others who treat me like a goddess. I think I will concentrate on that and try to make my peace with it.
[Wonderfully put, LushlyMe. And at the end of the day we don't have to suit everybody. Which is great because we *can't!* Instead we really only need to suit the one we choose and who chooses us. Thank you. --fl]
Submitted by 934 (not verified) on Sat, 2006-09-30 00:32.
It's really weird that the only comment I've ever had about having small tits (yeah, I'm either a 34aa or a 32a depending on the make lol) was from a woman - "are you going to get implants?" Which I thought was bloody rude considering she is about 3 stones overweight - how would she react if I said to her "are you going to lose all that extra fat?". All the men in my life have never said anything negative about my breasts - I'm in proportion and healthy (touch wood). Society (at least the Western world) seems obsessed to a ridiculous point about tits and their size. Sometimes I think it's funny, other times I just think why the obsession? Having pair of large tits doesn't make a woman more of a woman, no more than having a large penis or bigger muscles makes a man more of a man. I would hate men to talk to my tits instead of my face - and thankfully it's never really happened (well perhaps once or twice, but they soon looked back up at my face when they realised there wasn't that much to look at lol!).
[I've been guilty of talking-to-your-chest. The good news is my first partner set me straight about it, but that doesn't mean it's not an effort to keep my eyes level. It's never been about size but raised nipples are wonderfully distracting. Thanks, Dewdrop. --fl]
Submitted by 934 (not verified) on Sat, 2006-09-30 05:17.
Hi, Figgie!
I'm back. This is a subject near to my heart! :)
I would like to say that the women who 'suggested' to me that I get implants were not, in their minds, insulting me.
In their heads I had a problem and they had a solution. Of course my problem was not my small breasts but society's obsession with larger breasts.
I think that the popularity of implants may very well be geographically based.
I know of, at the very least, 15 women who have admitted to breast implants and many more who haven't admited yet CLEARLY have had them. I do not know of any women that have had reductions HOWEVER that doesn't mean that those women aren't out there. I live just outside the Metro NY area BTW.
I think it's interesting how your comments have been divided!
I think I may have to do yet another breast post, my friend!
Thanks for the inspiration yet again!
[The more we talk about it the sooner people will start figuring it out. Glad I've inspired you, Madame. Thanks. --fl]
Submitted by 934 (not verified) on Sat, 2006-09-30 07:53.
I've never had anyone suggest that I get implants. Of course, the fact that I work in software engineering, and make most of my out of work friends through Quaker meeting, might have something to do with why my experience is different from Madame X's :-).
The only thing I dislike about being small-breasted is that I'm still expected to wear a bra to be socially acceptable, and, while bigger breasted women say their comfort is actually improved by the support, I find bras a net loss in terms of comfort. If I could go braless all the time like Charlie's Angels, I'd be happy. But it's not worth being indecent in the eyes of others.
[Yup. That's one thing I miss about the 70's, when it was still, if briefly, ok for women who didn't need them to forego the expense. As for indecency I always figured the whole Annie Hall look with the scarves and multiple layers was at least partly inspired by the way they covered up. Plus if you're not forking over $40 for bras you can afford a lot more outerwear. :-) By the way, I'm guessing Madame X gets more of that sort of talk because she works in theater, dance, and fitness. Thanks, Lynn. --fl]
Submitted by 934 (not verified) on Sat, 2006-09-30 13:31.
I'm between an A and B cup. I usually get the "you're so flat" treatment, by women WAY more than by men, I think because men don't feel comfortable talking that way to women they know (on the street's a different story!).
But this reminded me of how my partner's mother, who's literally flat-chested, said something about how horrible it must be not to be able to go without a bra, since I'm "large-chested". It kind of cracked me up. It's all relative.
I am attracted to women with small breasts and women with large breasts, "real" or cosmetically-enhanced or reduced. It's not that I don't notice or care, I guess I just don't necessarily have a preference. It just kind of depends on the overall look. I would NEVER tell someone to get implants or reduce. Maybe that's just because it doesn't matter that much to me.
["It just kind of depends on the overall look." Yup, that totally sums it up, doesn't it? Thank you, EL. --fl]
Submitted by 934 (not verified) on Sun, 2006-10-01 14:58.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I saw any mention/treatment of breast sensation versus size. I mean, I'm a male, and I really like it when a woman kisses and licks my nipples. Conversely, I very much enjoy doing the same thing to my partner in bed, because it gives me pleasure to give her breasts and nipples pleasure, no matter the size involved. I'm not an anatomist, but the old "just a mouthful" cliche aside, my guess is that the basic nerve wiring system is pretty much the same, no matter the size (or shape, droopy or perky, for that matter) such that the sensations are equally pleasant from the owners' point of view. Bottom line is, size isn't that big a thing (so to speak) as long as the breasts can give you pleasure - and you find the person who can provide that pleasure.
[One of the earliest sex manuals I read, written in the late 1950s or very early 1960s said that size affected breast sensitivity *but,* well, there are too many buts to be able to make any but the vaguest claims. Yes, when it comes to the nervous system "basic wiring" is the same in all of us and so on that level we get the same set of nerves no matter how large or small a body part might be. But it's also the case that "basic wiring" is modular in the sense that any time we grow, each new square millimeter will have the same number of capillaries, oil and sweat glands, nerve endings, and numerous other components. And *then* there's the very, very wide distribution of nerve endings between any two individuals. And the final physiological complication is that the synaptic connections between our nerve endings and our brains are astonishingly plastic and therefore available for tremendous ranges of sensitivity. And *that's* just the biology! Throw in interest or aversion, arousal or anxiety, pride and shame, so on and so on, and the gap between theory and practice becomes unworkable. Your point about men being able to discover nipple sensitivity is a good illustration of the principle. Most people (not just men or women) have to learn how to interpret nerve stimulation as sexual. The good news? We can! The bad news? Well, we have to learn. Which, when you think about it, is actually more good news! We *get* to learn! :-) Thanks, Tambopaxi. --fl]
Submitted by 934 (not verified) on Mon, 2006-10-02 02:06.
My initial reaction, when reading the comments from Madame X, dewdrop, Lynn G-S, and EL, was disbelief. Could people really be so rude and ill-natured as to ask a young woman why doesn't she have breast implants? But then I thought back on conversations with women coworkers and friends and realized that such questions are all too common. Consider the insults exchanged concerning Renegade Evolution's surgically enhanced breasts during the recent discussion on objectification, and it is clear our relationship with our bodies, with the human body, is obsessive and far from healthy.
What is truly sad about this devaluing of our bodies is the way we disempower ourselves. We spend such a disproportionate amount of time worrying about our appearance when there is so much more to life. In a comment in response to another of your posts, Five of Nine said, if I recall correctly, that we now have the longest adolescence in history. Unfortunately for all of us, I think she is right.
[She may have been quoting the child psychologist Erick Erickson who said "It is human to have a long childhood, it is civilized to have an ever longer one." He didn't meant that as an excuse never to grow up, however. Erickson made a key point, by the way, that the radical pressure to conform among adolescents was an alarming-to-outsiders-but-critical part of identity formation. A huge, *huge* part of my philosophy of "real adult sex" is that a lot of our first romantic and sexual experience happens in that phase and that, unless we pay attention, we associate rather than separate the phenomena, carrying childish/conformist notions about sex and romance along with us even after we outgrow the rest. Anyway, yeah, it's pretty fucking rude to tell someone else that you'd like them better if they had, say, bigger boobs just so they could conform. Bad enough if it's a sex partner, egregiously not grown up if not even that. Thanks, Kochanie. --fl]