I think one of the most valid points against photographs of people, dressed and undressed, that provoke sexual interest is that it reduces them and their myriad attributes to an object of gratification. The subject of the photograph stops being funny, smart, an artist, a student fascinated by Foucalut or Plank or Schopenhauer, a workaholic, a recluse, a barber, a stamp collecter, devoted parent or loving offspring and becomes instead a set of curves, lines, shades, and colors that facilitates the sexual arousal of people they’ll likely never meet and who, it must be said, are rarely concerned about anything else about them except that single, reductive effect.
One thing I like most about Obasso’s Half-nekkid Thursday meme is that the photos are embedded in the context of the people in them. The images stop being of a babe with great legs and becomes, say, Madame X, of being a guy in his skivvies and becomes, say, AndyT13.
Appearing in HNT has given me a deeper appreciation of others who appear in erotic photographs. And it seems to me that HNT has the same effect on others. In particular, for me, even when I don’t know the person in a photograph I find myself far more curious about who they are even as I still appreciate the lines and curves, the shades and colors of the image before me.
And having appeared as an object of arousal for others it seems like the issue of that objectification is resolvable to the extent people are willing to see a who as well as a what. Or, more to the point, the issue of objectification is unresolvable to the extent people are unwilling to do so.
What’s your take?
Happy HNT (or Half-nekkid Thursday!)
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 2006-09-27 23:37.
I think we all, on some level, want to be seen as both. Idealy we are by those who love us. I think HNT offers us a chance to be both to people who don't "love" us like our lovers do.
I've always been against dating men who see me as only one or the other - smart vs. pretty. I am both and I want to be both and I want to be loved as both. Maybe this is just one way of spreading that love.
[Thank you, A, nicely put. "Smart vs. pretty" has always seemed like a false dichotomy. People who only want one but not the other are kind of boring, and people who want one or the other in a partner don't know what they're missing. --fl]
Submitted by 948 (not verified) on Wed, 2006-09-27 23:42.
Oooh, I've gotta just say "yes, yes, yes, yes, yes" to that pic. Fine body :) (I'm grinning ear to ear here like the proverbial Cheshire cat!). I may just have to borrow that pic for one of my Hunky Monday posts, please!!!
[Thank you, Dewdrop. I appreciate that you respected me enough to ask so of course. --fl]
Submitted by 948 (not verified) on Thu, 2006-09-28 00:01.
My take on HNT....one year and 26 pounds lighter, I'd say HNT has been good for me all the way around, meeting people, sharing a few laughs, appreciating our bodies, and knowing that we are all beautiful creatures in one way or another.
HNT is healthy!
BTW this photo is awesome! You look hot hot hot, sir!
HHNT
[Yup, seeing yourself through different eyes makes you see others differently as well. Kind of cool, huh? Thanks, Susie! --fl]
Submitted by 948 (not verified) on Thu, 2006-09-28 00:52.
yes please, with whip cream on top!
[Heh. Thanks, Spitfire. --fl]
Submitted by 948 (not verified) on Thu, 2006-09-28 03:14.
What we get out of it depends on what we put into it. Are we looking for a quick peek? Then no matter what the contributor has written we just glance over it then nearly ignore it while commenting so fast we're pressing X to close the window as we press Post to then move on to the next nekkid body. But I would like to think that those who take the time to read the words inside the post move it to a level above objectification. It then becomes a connection. Between the the owner of the curves, lines, and shades and the reader. Then they become real.
[Yeah, being an "object" isn't such a problem if unless you can be nothing more. Also I know what you mean about clicking through HNT posts too quickly to register the person. Thanks, Phain. --fl]
Submitted by 948 (not verified) on Thu, 2006-09-28 04:25.
Nice photo, although I think your jeans are up a bit too far. :)
HAPPY HNT!
[Heh! Thank you, Polt. Happy HNT. --fl]
Submitted by 948 (not verified) on Thu, 2006-09-28 05:38.
it is more intimate to have a sense of who the person is that you are gazing at. and if it is someone you read regularly, not just on thursday, even more so. you see a person more completely, even if they choose to remain anonymous.
i like that HNT can be anything...silly, sexy, sad,sweet, celebratory. artistic or not. If it were only one of those things I would not want to participate. the individual interpetations and expressions are what I enjoy so much.
and yes, that's a smoking pic.
HHNT
[Yeah, if it *had* to be one way or another it wouldn't have become what it has. Very cool effect, that. Thanks, Lime. --fl]
Submitted by 948 (not verified) on Thu, 2006-09-28 07:53.
I am not sure what my take is on the post I was too busy staring at the pic. Nice, very nice ;)
[Thank you, Cat. --fl]
Submitted by 948 (not verified) on Thu, 2006-09-28 08:37.
I too don't think it is necessarily either/or. If by reading someone's writing I feel that I have something in common with them - intellectually or at an emotional level - the fact that they want to show part or all of their bodies to me and others, adds to my sense that they are real people who live in the real world and not just cyberspace.
On the other hand, I can also appreciate looking at fine nude photography even when, in general, the impossible perfection of the image, poses and props all serve to completely objectivise the model. This is often the intention of the photographer/artist in any case.
In the end it is the slight (or not so slight) imperfections in the images of ourselves that we are prepared to expose to others that indicates our common humanity.
I am not ashamed of my 63 year-old body nor am I particularly proud of it but when I look at myself in a mirror, I have no doubt that there is a real human being looking back. Perhaps all I lack is the courage dispayed by those who participate in HNT to do it my self.
Your images certainly fall on the humanity side of the equation so keep up the good work!
[The two great things about HNT are that it's up to the individual to say what "half nekkid" means to them and, more importantly, it there's no obligation to participate and no need to justify yourself if you don't. Which means you can be no less (and no more) brave posting them as not. And thank you for your kind words, Lapis. --fl]
Submitted by 948 (not verified) on Thu, 2006-09-28 09:25.
I don't think objectification is in me.
I can't recall ever just looking at 'parts' instead of the whole person even if I don't KNOW them.
Now if you WANT me to turn you into a sex object....say, my own personal sex toy? I would be MORE than willing to do so just for you!
Fig you are just gorgeous! Inside, outside and upside down!
[Thanks, Madame! --fl]
Submitted by 948 (not verified) on Thu, 2006-09-28 10:54.
Good post, figleaf.
I keep meaning to start doing HNT! Why do I always remember on Friday, it seems?
Anyway, regarding this in particular:
I think you've done a great job there articulating the argument of many well-meaning people. And I do see how a lot of people could hold that view. But personally I've always found it to be, well, bullshit. I don't think it digs deep enough in its explanations. I mean, when I read something like that, I'm always left thinking, "Well, why can't I be funny/smart/artistic/etc. AND be 'a set of curves, lines, shades, and colors that facilitates the sexual arousal of people'? Why are the two assumed to be mutually exclusive? What does that say about our society and our dominant views of sexuality?"
People will be like, "Oh, but then you're just something [note: not someone] for a bunch of strangers to masturbate to!" And again I say, "So what? And, why the just?" I don't think masturbation is bad or someone "lower than" other facets of life; I don't think being horny and wanting to get off is something to be ashamed of. If someone wants to jerk off to a photo of me (or a thought about me!), well, I really can't say I'm too concerned one way or the other. And I don't see why the possibility that somewhere, someone might be masturbating to a photo of me would mean that I am any less intelligent, interesting, unique, funny, and whatever else.
[Yup, as I mentioned earlier the smart vs. pretty thing is just... weird. I'm not saying people don't encounter it. I'm just saying that kind of discrimination is a mistake. As for peope getting off looking at pictures I think it makes a difference if they're freely given or stolen. Peeking in people's windows, sneaking cameras into lockerrooms or hiding them in bedrooms is a problem. A number of women and evidently even more men get off on my photos on Flickr. Since I'm monogamous it's hard to see sleeping with any of them but since I posed for and posted them people are free to do with them as they please. Thanks, Amber. (By the way, I know what you mean about the forget-till-Friday thing. I know you wrote your own blogging software so I'm guessing you can add a "post-dated" feature so you can create your HNTs on Fridays and just schedule them for the following Thursday. Which I had to do the first half-dozen times or so.) --fl]
Submitted by 948 (not verified) on Thu, 2006-09-28 11:25.
It's always nice to have a story for a face or body... An explanation, an understanding, a perception that meets with your ideas, dreams, hopes or wishes....
Pictures can tell a lot. Some of it is up to your imagination, some up to how the photographer captures his subject, the lighting, the background, the clothing -- or not....
I love your blog, Figleaf ! Have been visiting for a while now...
I've added you to my links on my Blog : Make My Cop Come
http;//www.MakeMyCopCome.blogspot.com
Please come visit, Figleaf, and if you like my erotic stories (I just won in Sugasm #48), would you be willing to add me to your links as well ??
Thank you !
Sincerely,
Anne Elizabeth
[Hi Anne Elizabeth. Thanks for your kind words. Also, while I don't "trade" links per se I've got your blog in my to-do list. --fl]
Submitted by 948 (not verified) on Thu, 2006-09-28 15:34.
Wow, I loved these posts and it hit home for me for different reasons but what leaves me speechless is your picture.....
Excuse me while I go thank Madame X for recommending that I stop by here.
Happy HNT
[Thanks, Kristen. --fl]
Submitted by 948 (not verified) on Thu, 2006-09-28 16:16.
I would hit it, i like an intelligent man.
[Thanks, Ty. --fl]
Submitted by 948 (not verified) on Thu, 2006-09-28 19:10.
This may sound blashpemous to some, but it really is a matter of the word made flesh.
Whether you view a person clothed or naked, on the page or face to face, you are viewing someone's flesh and should do so with respect.
[Well said. Taking my own photos, and getting feedback, made me much more aware of that. Thanks, Kochanie. --fl]
Submitted by 948 (not verified) on Fri, 2006-09-29 14:38.
A day late, but HHNT!
I like this photo, but there is one similar to that I like much better. Your arms are down. I would not think of you as an object in this context. Maybe if I had seen that picture by itself and I knew nothing about you; but I think even if that was the case I probably would have created a story to go with the picture. I think when women view men it is different than when we see women. I think monagomy has created an unnatural competition among women. The culture of monagomy work well before love became a factor. The problem is now that we seek a partner base more on love, there has been no cultural adaptation that allows for every woman to find a partner. So we compete with the current standards of beauty, which causes jealosy and vicious trashing of other women. If we are not chosen, we have not had the attractiveness. We really don't objectify other women, we just don't acknowledge their person. We don't care if they are more than skin, etc., because they are between us and our goal.
[Wow, great interpretation, Five. The two authors I'm trying to read in my spare time, Coontz and Perel, both reference the downsides that have accompanied the upsides of love in monogamous relationships. Finally, I know what you mean about trying to find a "who" in photographs. For instance if there's a photo with a bookshelf in the background I usually look to see if I can read the titles. (An infrequently mentioned use of zoom features in discussions of porn.) Thank you, and a happy belated HNT to you too! --fl]