While I was cleaning the kitchen this afternoon and waiting for lunch to heat up (grilled pepper jack cheese and tomato on sprouted grain) it occurred to me what, exactly, has bugged me about the institution of spanking children. And I nearly lost my appetite.
Back in the 1920s, 1930’s, and into the 1950’s my grandfather wrote pediatric advice books as well as columns in various parenting magazines. Although a lot of what he said sounds a little, um, quaint to us today he was fiercely progressive. He was a passionate supporter of the La Leche League, endorsed eating healthy whole foods for health, he was opposed to routine male circumcision, and (the point) he really bucked the trend by rejecting spanking and other forms of corporal punishment for children. He never spanked any of his children, and while I remember my mom or dad spanking me once or twice when I was very young it must not have worked because they’d stopped before was what would have been pre-school aged. And, continuing the theme, my partner nor I have ever spanked my children.
And, sorry, but having read maybe one too many adult posts, or articles, or having heard maybe one too many personal testimonials extolling spanking as sexual foreplay I’m… just not comfortable with the idea of spanking as corporal punishment for children. Sorry, I’m just not.
And I don’t want to hear that “it doesn’t really hurt them that much.” Uh, uh, if it doesn’t hurt but it affects them through some other mechanism what’s that mechanism? Conflicted feelings of erotic sensation imposed by custodial/authority figures maybe? Sheeah, that’s going to make me more accepting.
I mean, for crying out loud, I’m pretty sure if these people were, I dunno, pinching their children’s nipples or some other non-genital behavior associated with adult BDSM the offender would, appropriately, find him or herself first in jail and then on a sex offender registry. So why, exactly, do we stand idly by while unsupervised parents eroticize their children’s asses? (And what, exactly, is the motivation behind emphasizing “bare bottom” spanking anyway? I mean WTF?)
Sorry. Time out works great. Sitting on the stairs works great. Losing computer time works great. Loss of play-date privileges works great. Long-boring-grownups-talking-about-consequences works too. You want to spank somebody, though, save it for a consenting adult. Where it’s appropriate. M’kay?
Because spanking kids? Eww! It’s not just wrong, it’s sick and wrong. And it’s not just sick and wrong, the more I think about it the more it’s just (the wrong kind of) perverted.
Tags:
Submitted by 2115 (not verified) on Mon, 2008-04-28 14:41.
Yeah, I totally agree with you here. The other thing besides the weird sexual stuff that you mention is that what does spanking teach children, anyway? That violence is a good way to solve problems? That you can get what you want by hurting or humiliating someone? The association with the disciplining of children is also why adult spanking creeps me out. Also, I have to throw in a mention of Mary Sheedy Kurcinka-her parenting books are excellent. I especially like Kids, Parents, and Power Struggles.
[Thank you, Mag. Don't forget spanking (especially the "it doesn't really hurt them" school) teaches *humiliation.* Not so hot either. --fl]
Submitted by 2115 (not verified) on Mon, 2008-04-28 19:06.
i was spanked as a child, but not on my bare bottom. i think it was only a few times, but having had a generally crappy childhood i don't really remember.
aside from refusing to wash when the hot water heater wasn't running, i honestly don't know what i did. i certainly don't feel it harmed me (if anything an alcoholic grandparent and father did much more harm).
based on my short experience of babysitting and being a camp counselor, i honestly don't blame exasperated parents for spanking their kids. it certainly convinced me that until biology evolves to the point where children come with a manual and a return receipt, i'm not going to have any. tranquilizer gun and darts would have been useful, but they didn't give us those at camp :)
[I'm not saying people can't correct their children, or even that they shouldn't. I'm just saying I think it's a little healthier if you don't and, even more especially, some of the conservatives around here who get on the radio defending their corporal punishment bills and things like that just get a little too, um, enthusiastic for comfort. Thanks, kermit. --fl]
Submitted by 2115 (not verified) on Mon, 2008-04-28 19:37.
My mom never spanked me, she just hit me in the face! So that was, uh, healthier.
I eventually learned to say "So now my face hurts, but you're still wrong," which pretty much sums up why I'm never going to use physical pain on my own kids.
Still, I don't think butt-spanking is a sexual thing, I think it's a humiliation thing (just as the "purple nurple" between kids is not explicitly sexual either). Which doesn't make it loving or instructive, but it's not pedophiliac either.
[Eh, I agree it's not perceived by parents as sexual, but I'd really like to move sexual spanking far enough forward that people had the same associations with it that I've got. I mean, geez, some people won't even touch their *wive's* purses for fear it'll somehow "make them gay," so scaring them off of spanking for fear they'll be seen as pedophiles just doesn't seem that unreasonable. (And yes, agree that hitting faces *really* isn't an improvement!) Thanks, Holly. --fl]
Submitted by 2115 (not verified) on Mon, 2008-04-28 20:11.
I got spanked quite often as a child (uh, in my parents' defense, I did deserve each spanking), and while I don't think being spanked caused me any long lasting damage, it obviously didn't work very well as a behavioral deterrent either.
But then, neither did grounding me, sending me to my room, or withholding my allowance.
Hmm, not really sure what my point here is...
[I think I know what you mean, norby. An old supervisor used to say over and over "investment follows the clearest pathway to success," which usually didn't make *any* sense to me. Except, now, later in life, when I've got children, where discipline seems to work most successfully when I clearly articulate *desired* outcomes instead of dwelling on (a.k.a. *defining!*) undesired outcomes. And now that I think about it that's what worked best for me too. --fl]
Submitted by 2115 (not verified) on Mon, 2008-04-28 22:30.
I have certainly encountered a couple of spankos who were spanked as children and clearly remember getting thrills from it that they now recognise as sexual.
All of them have said, "[If I have children,] I will never spank them. Too weird and creepy."
[Exactly, Dw3t. It's not the certainty of sexualization (any more than opposition to reproductive choice represents a preference for forced-pregnancy porn with any certainty.) It's the possibility that *sometimes it does* that's, yeah, creepy. Thanks! --fl]
Submitted by 2115 (not verified) on Tue, 2008-04-29 16:01.
I was spanked as a child. Rattan canes and all. Not often, because no one really likes a whupping.
But all the alternatives you mentioned? Wouldn't have worked on me. Just. Would. Not. I was a stubborn, shitty little kid. The only other alternative to spanking that WOULD have worked was humiliation, which basically is emotional abuse.
Between that and getting my ass whupped by the feather duster/hanger? I'll take the physical pain, kthx. Not that it matters now, because my mother STILL punishes through emotional abuse without even realizing it.
Submitted by 2115 (not verified) on Wed, 2008-04-30 12:16.
Yes! That's exactly what icks me out so much about spanking as punishment for kids.I was only ever spanked once as a kid, when I put myself in danger and scared the hell out of my dad. He apologized afterwards, explaining that it was in no way okay for him to hit me.
Since spanking wasn't a routine punishment for me as a child, my associations with it are purely sexual. Spanking is foreplay for me. Right now I don't plan on having children, but if I ever do there's no way I'm going to spank them. I'd feel like a total pedo doing that to a kid, and anyway, if my kids happened to grow up kinky I wouldn't want them to associate something which can be so much fun with negative things like shame and punishment.
[Yeah, that's exactly what I was trying to get at, Bea! If sex is your only association with spanking then you're not about to do it to your children. --fl]
Submitted by 2115 (not verified) on Tue, 2008-05-06 05:19.
I'm of the opinion that some punishment means (time-outs, etc) don't always work for every child. I know someone who, growing up, did not find spanking or other methods to actually deter him from doing something. He just viewed it as what he had to endure to get away with 'x'. Of course, he's also a rather messed up adult... But my opinion still stands. Nothing is 100%.
I was spanked as a kid - one of those paint stirrer boards as the prop used. Not tons, but a few times growing up when I really screwed up.
On the other hand, spanking is the first kink I recall getting hot and bothered over. This started at a very young age (6ish), but I NEVER interrupted the punishment spankings as anything remotely sexual (like I never sought out things to do to get spanked.. and I did think of it as a real and Dreaded! punishment). It was like there were two categories for them in my brain. There were my little fantasy spankings and the ones I wanted nothing to do with.
[And that's the way I think a lot of people feel. So the way I look at it (since I don't think spanking as pedegogy works very well) is to say "save spanking for kink." Thanks, Quilzas. --fl]
Submitted by 2115 (not verified) on Fri, 2008-05-09 05:34.
Interestingly, spanking worked very well for me as a kid for a means of punishment. It was rare, it was dreaded, I knew I'd messed up. Of course, I may have responded to another sort of punishment just as well. I had a huge fear of pissing-off-authority as a child.
Though I wonder if I hadn't been spanked if I would have developed my kink of spanking.
My earliest sexual fantastics (age 5 or 6) started out as stealing cookies and getting spanked as a punishment (my scenario included me being an anthro bear - think Goldilocks and the Three Bears.. I as baby bear). There was sexual feelings associated with that. Part of the reason maybe is that as a kid we had a hassock that if I laid over right on my belly I would hump and it felt good (I was never spanked by my dad on his hassock). But I'm still not sure why I thought of getting spanked while doing this.
[I don't actually know if childhood spanking translates into adult kink. I'm not even sure how one would test it. I suspect, though, that the effect is minimal such that people who enjoy it as adults would still enjoy it if they'd never been spanked as children... while, on the other hand, quite a few people who were spanked as children who *might otherwise enjoy it as adults* don't want anything to do with it. So on balance, especially since you *do* remember the sexual associations (which is the part that I object to), it's a good idea to leave spanking to the kinksters and keep it away from children. Thanks, Q. --fl]