Why It's Probably Better To Ask Women What Women Want Than Try to Guess

Lynn Gassiz-Sax of Noli Irritare Leones has the definitive takedown of the “women want bad boys” conceit.

If we women really crave, above all else, guys who are nothing but trouble for us, shouldn’t John Hinckley have totally nailed Jodie Foster? Aren’t scary violent guys with guns exactly the kind of jerks that, according to the Nice Guy™ narrative, we should be falling over ourselves to sleep with? Or could it, just possible, be that the reason lonely murderers weren’t getting laid to begin with was that they already had that violent streak in them, and when women met them, they encountered things that made the hair on the back of their neck stand on end.

She said it here.

And while a seeming counterfactual would be the numerous fan mail, including marriage offers, tendered to Ted Bundy after he confessed to being a serial killer, the fact that his admirers numbered at best in the low hundreds in a nation of hundreds of millions says only that for every Whacko Jacko there’s a Whacko Jill.

Lynn continues (emphasis mine)

In fact, though we’ve all had the experience of rejecting guys who were genuinely nice enough, but not for us (the guy, say, who totally disagrees with you about whether he wants kids, or who’s the most amiable fundie you could ever meet, but you’re Unitarian, or who otherwise just isn’t on the same page as you regarding something on which you really need to be on the same page), we’ve also all rejected guys who made the hair on the back of our neck stand on end. The guy who carries a knife, and one of his first questions is whether you’re connected with any guy bigger than him, who could beat him up. The drunk who volunteers, right off the bat, that he’s going to beat up any guy who pays you any attention. The guy who tells you a long story about how God sent messages to him in traffic lights to go and find his ex-girl friend, and then says, by the way, you look a lot like her, and you look rather romantic, right now, against that post. Oh, we may sometimes fall for the smooth talking guy with great pecs who will cheat on us in the end (just as men fall for the female equivalent), but we also have a basic sense of self-preservation that, when we listen to our gut, leads us to avoid the most scary dangerous men who want to go to bed with us.

That line about bigger boyfriends who could beat him up is classic by the way. And classic projection too. I’m not sure you could completely parse the notion in a thousand pages but some of the high points include:

  • Internalizing the worthiness trap that says men must be “higher status” to “earn” or deserve “higher status” women. (When, in fact, women, being human beings just like everyone else, tend not to imagine themselves as prizes granted.)
  • Tacitly acknowledging their acceptance of a particularly primitive patriarchal system wherein female partners are effectively spoils of war instead of, well, partners.
  • Weirdest of all, an abiding insecure certainty that their place in the system is uncertain and, especially, that they’re unlikely to succeed in it. (This is similar to the assumption I think drives a lot of men’s preference for virginity or inexperience which is that they won’t compare favorably to any of the woman’s previous partners.)

But the big thing that’s implied is that the NiceGuy™ strategy is really a secondary strategy in an “alpha male” paradigm… that if the NiceGuy™ was only bigger, only able to beat up other men, and maybe better with a knife (a knife?!?!) then instead of all the smarmy “Pickup Artist” tactics he could just grab you by the hair and drag you out and nobody better try and stop him.

There’s also the… interesting assumption that all women want big, rich, violent partners. There’s also the assumption that all women’s attraction is transactional — that if you don’t “lock her in” some how she’ll kite off with anyone bigger, richer and/or more violent than her current partner.

There’s also the equally interesting tangle of assumptions that — assuming women are autonomous anyway — their attractiveness quotient is linked to their attraction to big, rich, and violent men such that the more beautiful the woman the bigger, richer, and more violent her partner is likely to be. Or, assuming women aren’t autonomous, that the more physically attractive they are they’ll automatically fall prey to end up in relationships with those selfsame bigger, richer, or more violent men.

What’s most disturbing, of course, is that none of this seems to be particularly true about women. Yes, some women sent Ted Bundy love letters just like some men are Ted Bundys or John Hinkley Juniors. But just as it would be… rash to assume all men are or want to be closet Ted Bundys or John Hinkley Juniors, so it would be rash to assume all women have or would like to send them love letters.


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Submitted by 3118 (not verified) on Sat, 2009-08-15 03:58.

Very Orwellian of you, in the "Road to Wigan Pier" and "Down and Out in Paris and London" sense, the mores of the have-nots being more encompassing of human diversity and libertinism than that of the so-called better classes, who have a longer minimum checklist of minimum qualifications for sex. I'm a bit unclear about the phone number's significance, though. Do you mean PUAs who competed with each other to gather the greatest number of phone numbers, or neophyte PUAs gathering numbers as a form of security blanket against not being able to get the interaction to some form of success? Because while the former is slightly ridiculous, the latter is a bridge to greater involvement, the same way PUAs who are worried about getting to have sex at all, ever, with an actual woman, are admonished to work on comfortable hand-holding as a reasonable, promising goal and way-station. (Also handily takes care of touch-deprivation-derived creepiness to a certain extent.)

Um, and yanno, the values of my social circles have remained remarkably constant, so hearing "not my subculture" doesn't really help, because it still leaves these men's reading of their cultural situation as an accurate description, even if their universalism is misplaced.

[Not at all. People in the 1970s college/disco scene undoubtedly would have found my subculture limiting and theirs diverse. The point is to find one's best niche *relative to one's self* not to seek some hypothetical best subculture. To use college/fraternity metaphors, some people will be more comfortable, and more suitable, with football, others with ballet, others with chess, and others smoking rope and partying down. Whatever the subjective consensus might be about the utility of one such group or another an alert newcomer will notice each has comparable levels of discipline and sophistication. One will also note, though, that different subcultures have different ways of counting coup. The ones that use sex as a medium only the designated "winners" are going to have very much sex and it's possible that even they are going to feel dissatisfied with it. But not all subcultures use sex to measure prowess. And by the way, that doesn't even mean everything's peachy keen for them -- status games are almost always painful for almost all concerned regardless of how status is counted. I happen to care quite a bit about changing the focus away from sex wherever possible not because I think pecking orders can be superseded but because using sex seems to necessarily involve sequestering some people (women for instance) not as participants but as objects. With the result that it's scowled upon when they enjoy sex because it ruins the game for "everybody else." Meaning for men. Picking something else really lets *everybody* play. --fl]

Submitted by 3118 (not verified) on Fri, 2009-08-14 12:54.

Really, fl, you've never dated at college? You've never had a frat brother duck in with "Here, let me freshen up that drink for you" as a power play to remove the attentions of the sweet 1st-year chick from the private college across town from the realm of your concerns? You've really never lived with being one-down in the hierarchy and all the women around you validating that, and using it as an excuse or a reason to pass you up.

I think you are far too fixated on Lynn's knife-wielding aside and you think far too much of actual male violence as a part of the paradigm, when in fact it's subordinate, but the usefulness of traditional masculinity and dominance in building heterosexual relationships is manifest. The hunter-gatherer past is not far enough behind to stop women from gravitating to the biggest dude, the one hosting the party, the flash and the cash. Social and sexual ghettoization do happen, and get passed off as "birds of a feather flock together." Of course, not everyone is as dysfunctional as I am, but I do find this a bit polyanna-ish. It's not for nothing that as a somewhat differently-abled person I wind up dating almost exclusively women who are themselves disabled, with a chronic illness, etc. Someone from a radically-different ability background either won't be able to connect with you, or (worse) won't recognize your life-situation as a human experience.

I think the remarkable thing is the cognitive dissonance of the men who live with this attitude, whose real relationships with women often don't reflect their anger. Arpagus, the blogger whose initial post endorsed Sodini's manifesto, who titled an entry "Rape is Equality", is a rather inoffensive sort who seems to haunt the nightlife of a mid-sized Norwegian city, frustrated mainly by the ephemeral nature of bar hookups and the fact that they don't turn into anything more for him.

[The dating scene was pretty... interesting when I was a carless, homeless, often food-less, and even more frequently shower-less high-school dropout earning maybe $10-15/week doing gofer duty in university-district beer bars. So no, no 4th-year frat brothers or 1st-year sorority girls in my dating circles... and while I know the sort of antics and the kind of people you're talking about, even as bar customers they tended towards the dress-code disco bars down the street. Thing is that sex for that whole subculture, as for the PUA guys with their "high-status" night-club "target" women sure doesn't seem to be that much about the sex. I was startled, for instance, that the objective for whole swaths of PUA culture is to get someone's *phone number!* That's kind of overloading the concept of "seduction." Let alone dating. Let alone sex. So yes, anyway, if you have parties with nothing but people who gawp on about status then sure, the women are going to gravitate to the gawpiest guys and they're going to be holding out for the gawpiest women (assuming they're heterosexual which, of course, PUA exclusively appears to be.) But the thing is that, you know, in subcultures where women hold their own there's a lot less tail-wagging around the wealthiest, smartest-dressed, or even most visually-attractive men. It's not that there's no such thing as status, it's that there's often enough diversity among both men and women that there's no one #1 best-in-show that everyone else is automatically second-best to. They're more fun, more interesting, and I'm pretty sure generally more sexier and less phone-number-y. Just saying. --fl]

Submitted by 3118 (not verified) on Fri, 2009-08-14 17:40.

Heh. Eurosabra's description doesn't look familiar to me, either, and I did hang out as a frat on the weekends for a while freshman year of college.

But I don't think I've had someone offer to "freshen up [my] drink" in my life. Not my subculture ...

Submitted by 3118 (not verified) on Sun, 2009-08-16 18:18.

Eurosabra's and Figleaf's comments sound very much like the difference between my undergrad and grad school university social scenes.

One was a large public university with a very diverse and completely decentralized social scene with so many subscenes that they didn't even know about each other and no one scene or one "type" had any influence or status to the others. Even the frats and sororities were completely ignored by the huge non-Greek population (though the Greeks may have considered themselves to be the "top dogs" the fact that no one else did or paid them any attention or sought them out gave lie to that.

The other was a small private university with a single social scene run by the top frats and sororities and centered around the richest/preppiest/jockiest/Barbiest/alphas and constant ranking on the hierarchy based on who was hooking up with whom.

Lots of PUA-esque behavior in the latter, none in the former. Or as my Nana used to say, "What you catch depends on where you're fishing and what bait you're using." :)

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