Sounds like it happens every time Playboy’s Guy Cimbalo jacks off alone.
I mean, seriously, hate fucking?
I’m not naive, I just don’t get the appeal.
Unless it’s more of that alienated thing where people… mostly but not exclusively men… use sex for something besides enjoying sex. Like keeping a score. Or “getting lucky.” Or otherwise measuring one’s self not by the actual, you know, sexual enjoyment one brings one’s self or one’s partner but… establishing one’s worth.
Consider the hypothetical conversation
Cimbalo: Hey, I finally I hate-fucked somebody on my list from my column!
Figleaf: Did you enjoy yourself? Did she enjoy herself?
Cimbalo: No, are you kidding?
Figleaf: So you had sex with someone but you didn’t want to?
Cimbalo: Well, yeah, that’s what hate-fucking is all about innit? Heck I had to flagellate my genitals just for wanting to!
Figleaf: Couldn’t you have just found someone on Alt.com or AFF who’d flagellate them for you?
Cimbalo: You don’t get it, I didn’t want her to flagellate my genitals!
Figleaf: So… why not just make an appointment with a “pro-dom?” They’ll flagellate you whereever you want them to.
Cimbalo: You still don’t get it, I didn’t want to have sex with her in the first place!
Figleaf: Oh, I think I get it. If you don’t want to have sex with someone why don’t you hire a financial dominatrix? They charge you money not to have sex with them.
Cimbalo: I didn’t want to not have sex with just anybody, I wanted to not have sex with one woman.
Figleaf: So you’re saying you’re too cheap to…
Cimbalo: (Interrupting) Actually I don’t want to have sex with anybody on my list. That’s the whole idea behind hate-fucking!
Figleaf: I think you’re getting a little ahead of yourself here. If you hate fucking why make a list at all?
Cimbalo: No, I like fucking it’s just that…
Figleaf: Oh, yeah, well, you’re a little young for erectile dysfunction but there’s nothing to be ashamed of…
Cimbalo: (Interrupting again) No! I can get it up!
Figleaf: I see, but you’re ashamed of your tiny penis?
Cimbalo: Dude, Playboy paid me to make this list and…
Figleaf: And you took the money so you could get something to enlarge your tiny penis?
Cimbalo: Shut up! My penis is plenty big enough to get the job done…
Figleaf: Wait! Playboy wanted you to write the column with your penis? What kind of job is…
Cimbalo: (Interrupting again) ...
Figleaf: Going back to this “flagellating your genitals” thing, would you rather pay a man or a woman to flagellate you before not having sex?
Cimbalo: A woman of course! You think I’m some kind of pervert?
I think the idea behind this hate-fucking thing is that men can humiliate or punish women they don’t like by having sex with them. Except the impression one gets over and over from Cimbalo’s remarks about his choices on the list (e.g. “You need to flagellate your genitals for wanting to fuck this woman” or “chemical castration has begun to look appealing”) one gets the impression it’s Cimbalo who would feel humiliated. Which again begs the question of why one would ever want to do such a thing. And meanwhile there’s no reason to believe women feel particularly punished or humiliated just from having sex with someone they’ve decided to have sex with. (And having sex with someone who didn’t decide to isn’t “hate fucking” it’s sexual assault, so no escape hatch there.)
Which leaves one back where I started: WTF with “hate fucking” anyway?
Submitted by 2993 (not verified) on Wed, 2009-06-03 21:04.
Hate fucking? Misogyny, that's all it is.
Bullshit term used by men who want to have the impression of being a "playa" for lack of a better term.
Submitted by 2993 (not verified) on Tue, 2009-06-02 19:12.
It's anger sex for people who are afraid to make a commitment.
Submitted by 2993 (not verified) on Tue, 2009-06-02 20:13.
It's rape for people who are vaguely aware that "I want to rape her" might sound sorta bad.
Submitted by 2993 (not verified) on Tue, 2009-06-02 20:28.
I'm still not sure what "hate fucking" might be, but I'm certain it'd be impossible with you; it'd end in a puddle of giggles. I'm stuck on the image of this poor schmuck's penis in an ink pot.
It's lovely when you lighten up, figleaf.
Submitted by 2993 (not verified) on Tue, 2009-06-02 21:30.
Or it could be that he finds them repulsive on an intellectual level, but finds them really sexy on a visual or emotional level. So he'd hate himself for fucking them yet would have a really hard time saying "no" if one of them asked.
(I have no clue how likely this is. I haven't read the article and don't think it's actually possible for me to hate anyone. Even if someone raped and tortured me for days I would probably just pity them for being so messed up.)
Submitted by 2993 (not verified) on Tue, 2009-06-02 22:51.
Brilliant post, fl!
I think the idea is to start out having sex while motivated by hatred and rage, having received consent from the hate-fuckee but not a fully informed consent. Hate-fucker doesn't tell the truth about his intentions. He is not technically committing rape; he gets to snicker about the dominating and humiliating he achieved after he's done.
Okay, fine. The part I don't get is how the hate-fucker achieves the post-hatefuck afterglow of pleasure. Do you say to the hate-fuckee afterwards "Aha! That was a HF! Gotcha!" Or tell your friends you hated your partner and were doing it to humiliate her? Either way, the hate-fucker sounds like a loser, I daresay.
Submitted by 2993 (not verified) on Wed, 2009-06-03 04:36.
Ugh. The whole idea of "hate fuck" makes me incredibly sad. I just don't like that even MORE crap gets piled on what should be a lovely and enjoyable activity that is already weighed down with a stinking load of cultural baggage. Thanks for lightening it up, fl! :)
I think the other commenters are right...it's about slying suggesting not-so-consensual conquest sex, mixed feeling about repulsion/attraction, and about humiliation/keeping score and "getting one over on those bitches." The best way to show your dominance/superiority over a female is to fuck her?
And isn't it interesting that the double standard/no-sex class construction ensures that there is no turnabout-is-fair-play. Can a woman hate fuck a man? Not really. If there is sex, he somehow "wins" and gets something while she loses something...the whole economic exchange thing that we're still trying to dismantle.
My friends and I came up with this convoluted possible scenario: Woman calls up guy she hates, sets up a tryst where she goes to his place (so she can conveniently escape), makes him service her in ways that do little for him and are even a little squicky for him (oral sex while she has her period, analingus, etc.) and then once she gets off as much as she wants, she gets up and leaves without any reciprocation or fleeting interest in his pleasure. Then she goes out and tells everyone she knows, including people in his circle so it will get back to him, that she used him for selfish sex and didn't even let him come (b/c if he gets too excited or comes, then he "wins"), and made him do things he didn't really want to do, insinuating the whole time that he's beneath authentic attraction and was just a glorified sex toy for the moment.
Sadly, this just sounds like flipping the genders on the extreme end of the misogynistic treatment of women by men in popular culture/frat boy culture/mainstream porn, etc. Which just goes to show you how fucked up it all is.
Submitted by 2993 (not verified) on Wed, 2009-06-03 18:17.
FWIW, I tried to access the Playboy article via Jezebel's link, and gee, it seems they've taken it down. What a loss for world literature.
Kaija, I agree that structurally, it's hard for a woman to hate-fuck a man. That'll be the case as long as there's a special dose of shame attached to sex for women. Hmmm ... so if you get rid of the shame, the hate fuck ought to go extinct, too.
Submitted by 2993 (not verified) on Wed, 2009-06-03 21:20.
I think that oftentimes, "hate-fuck" is used to mean that you "hate" a person on an intellectual or emotional level, but still feel attracted to them on the level of pure lust, so you'd still like to fuck them. (& you sort of "hate" yourself for wanting to.) Either your hatred of the person can't stop you from wanting them, or your strong feelings for them somehow contribute to the lust. E.g., "he's so smug & obnoxious! I'm so sick of seeing him around the office every day! But I'd really like to fuck his brains out!"
Furthermore, I think it often carries the implications that you'd be having really rough, angry sex, but in an intense, enjoyable way. So
I don't think it's supposed to mean that one or more parties aren't enjoying it. (By this definition, it would be possible for two people to hate-fuck each other!) Some folks out there may be using "hate-fuck" in a different way, to suggest that you are doing it only to degrade someone and "teach her a lesson." But that's not what I always thought it meant. I will furthermore state that I don't think the term is supposed to imply rape, but that for Cimbalo to write an article like this one, threatening to "hate-fuck" actual women for whom he feel contempt, is clearly way too rape-y.
If this whole controversy proves one thing, it's that Guy Cimbalo would make a crappy philosopher! He didn't define his terms!
Submitted by 2993 (not verified) on Thu, 2009-06-04 03:59.
Emily, that's an excellent analysis of the possible meanings...very helpful, thanks! I agree that the first interpretation is one of those situations that most people probably run into if you're sexually active and self-aware. That scenario where you recognize that a person repulses you on an intellectual/emotional level but still pushes your lust buttons on a biological level is VERY disconcerting and bring out all kinds of uncomfortable. There's real reasons why religion and culture try so hard to rein in and tame sexuality...it IS a powerful and often irrational/uncontrollable thing that occasionally scares us with it's manifestations.
However, I also agree that the no-so-subtle rape-y "fuck this bitch and teach her a lesson" vibe comes through in the article and sets my teeth on edge.
My take away is that if more people read this stuff and discussed it/deconstructed it/had the uncomfortable conversations about the cultural and gender messages in what is seemingly pop culture/entertainment fluff, we'd be well on our way to evolving OUT of this silly double standard :) Thanks for the thought starters and discussion, all!